Strategy & Tragedy: CEO Stories with Steph Melodia is the best business podcast for curious entrepreneurs featured in the UK's Top 20 charts for business shows.

Hosted by Stephanie Melodia, Strategy & Tragedy features candid interviews with entrepreneurs who have scaled - and failed - their businesses - sharing their lessons in entrepreneurship along the way. From Simon Squibb of 'What's Your Dream?' Internet fame to Lottie Whyte of Sunday Times Top 100 Fastest-Growing company, MyoMaster. From exited founders like Nick-Telson Sillett to subject matter experts like Alex Merry in the public speaking arena and Matt Lerner, the GOAT of Growth.

This is one of the best podcasts to listen to if you're looking for educational and inspirational content on Spotify, Apple, Google, Amazon, YouTube or watch the clips on Instagram, LinkedIn, TikTok, or YouTube Shorts

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In this week's episode, Stephanie Melodia interviews executive coach & conflict expert, Nicole Posner. She works with Conflict-Avoidant Leaders, helping them to speak up calmly, confidently and courageously in moments that matter. She is also the creator of The Difficult Conversation Code and author of 'and BREATHE…' (purchase here).

Watch on YouTube via the link below or keep reading for the transcript, where Steph and Nicole discuss:

• Lack of "co-founder dating" – Many startups skip getting to know their co-founders properly at the beginning, failing to discuss values, working styles, and how they'll handle disagreements before launching the business together.
  

• Poor communication and conflict avoidance – Founders often avoid difficult conversations until issues escalate, rather than addressing problems early when they're manageable and easier to resolve.
  

• Misaligned expectations and culture – Partners frequently don't discuss fundamental questions like whether they want a lifestyle business or unicorn, their vision for growth, personal commitments, or what kind of company culture they want to build.
  

• Importance of the "conflict charter" – Creating an informal agreement early on about how to handle potential conflicts provides a safety net, allowing founders to respond calmly rather than emotionally when problems arise.
  

• Environmental and psychological triggers – How people react in conflict often stems from childhood experiences and past environments, making self-awareness crucial for managing disagreements constructively.
  

• Conflict as positive force – When handled respectfully with honesty, courage, and authenticity, disagreements can strengthen relationships, spark creativity, and lead to better business outcomes rather than causing damage.

  
  

SM: 65% of startups fail because of founder fallout. That is insane. Why do you think that is? What's the most common causes that lead to this inevitable fallout?

NP: There are so many, but I think a lot of the problem starts at the very beginning. They don't do what I call co-founder dating. So there's a lot of matchmaking situation. They have a great idea, a great service. They wanna get excited. They wanna get out there. But they don't actually give enough credence to the importance of their relationship. So that is the very big starting point, who they are as people. It's not just about what they're bringing to market. It's about them. And it's like I always say, when you meet someone, you you have a new partnership. You don't just get married. You get to know them. You spend time with them. You understand their values, what's important to them. And that, I think, is the crucial link that's often missed in a lot of new cofounders when they start up.

SM: Are there any practical frameworks, tools, or even give us kind of example questions? Because I think a lot of people might even struggle to know how do I maybe they're lacking their own self awareness. How is someone else better?

NP: I would always start with what's important to you, your values, who you are as a person, understanding where you come from, your environment, your likes, dislikes, even stupid things like when you sit and in, you know, in an office environment.

Some people love having music on while they work. Some people hate it. Mhmm. So getting to actually understand who you are as people, how you might react in certain situations under stress, under pressure. Ask question.

Actually, you know, if this happens, you know, what's what's the likelihood you're gonna react in this way? Or, understanding a classic is friends who co found. Yeah. So you expect that you've been might have been friends since you were this high or met at uni, whatever. There's an expectation that you are always going to agree on things because you've you spent your life doing things together. And I've I have I cannot tell you how many founders I've met who have fallen out with their best friend and lost the business because of it because there's an expectation. So you almost bypass the dating with friendship Yeah. Because you don't do your due diligence.

Exactly. And so I, you know, I would say, if you if you are gonna cofound, for example, with a friend, sit down and say, okay. We know we love each other because we're here. But what you know, how are we gonna work together?

You know, what's what's so going back to actually the list of things, you know, what vision and mission for the business. Yeah. So many people think we're going into business together. Yay. They you know, do you wanna be a lifestyle business, or do you wanna be a unicorn?

Yeah. You know, is there alignment on that? Vision can also change as well further down the line. Discussions around, you know, status hierarchy, that's also very ego driven as well. And if you get to the point where, you know, one of you is gonna become a CEO, you are you the right person for that role to take the business forward? Also salaries, remuneration, those kind of questions you need to sit down and discuss at the very beginning. I'm I'm going on and on, but I'm just getting excited about this. And and so, you know, what you talk about the status and then there are things like, changes in your personal circumstances. So you might both start out or might be more of you actually, where you're, young, free, and single, and then one of you gets married, has a baby. So some of your commitments within the business change wise and what the sort of effort you wanna put into it. And while one of you might be thinking, you know what? Why aren't you working till midnight every night and working weekends? You know, we and the other one's like, you know, I've got other commitments that are priority now. So that can create a lot of friction as well. Mhmm. If we go back to the beginning for a quick second on that, unlike that discovery stage, there's a couple of things that come up, a couple of challenges that not only I can imagine, but I've definitely witnessed either firsthand or secondhand.

So what with the questioning. So if we say, like, okay. Sit down. What are your values? How do you react in this situation? Etcetera, etcetera. One of the problems with that, and this is definitely coming from my sort of marketing background as it relates to, you know, customer interviews, is by simply asking a direct question doesn't always mean that you are going to get the honest and truthful answer. So sometimes there's a need to either ask things in a lateral kind of way, come at it from a different angle, or even put certain things to the test and just see how do you actually react in situations because, of course, stress can cloud the mind. I might say something about how I react in a situation, and that might be how I honestly do think of myself, but when it comes down to it, maybe I do act slightly differently or maybe it's perceived differently by others. So what can you speak to, I guess, on those two points in terms of finding getting to the Information. Without just d. Directly asking questions? Quick one.

So sorry to interrupt. I'm on the edge of your seat listening to this interview, at least I hope so. I'm so aware of all the other podcasts that are already out there. So the fact that you've decided to tune in and listen to this one is not lost on me. If you can just go that one step further and hit that follow or subscribe button, doesn't cost a thing.

It takes two seconds. Now is your chance to do that. It means so much. Really appreciate your support. Thank you so much.

Now let's get back to the interview. Do you know what I always say to people who are starting out? Spend time together. Yeah. Not just sit down like, you know, this is an inter actually, you know, spend proper time together.

See you know, you get to know people in different ways. It's not always about tell me your life story. Yeah. You know, I was talking to, a founder, and I said to him, look. You know?

Yes. You you might have your list of questions, but, actually, go out. Go out for a few coffees with him. Understand his environment. Understand where he comes from.

Ask him about his family. Mhmm. Because you aren't you get in from people, not just from direct questionings. But if I ask you about your background, you know, yes, I might make a wrong assumption, of course. But that's gonna give me a lot of information about who you are as a person. Because the way you answer other questions is not necessarily you know, they might not be, so how do you act under pressure? So they might just start talking about family or or a situation from a former, you know, I don't know, situation in a work environment. Yeah. Yeah.

How do you how do you handle that? It's not like how do you under how - it's extracting information in different ways. It's giving them an opportunity to story tell. It's like I say, kind of an open ended it's funny because literally just earlier today, caught up with a friend and she's helping me out with something. And she was saying about asking someone, tell me about the best boss that you ever had, and how it's one of these really eye opening questions that reveal much more than you think on the surface. Right? Right?

Because actually even through that and especially if you do let them just kind of talk and talk, they're revealing their values. They're revealing how they want to be managed if they want autonomy. Do you have any sort of frameworks or practical tips throughout that dating period because what you bring to mind for me is some of these accelerators that do their own kind of cofounder matchmaking. Yeah. And I know, for example, I know some amazing cofounding teams that have gone through the Founders Factory accelerator, for example.

And they've shared with me this very accelerate, like, from first date to marriage in, I don't know, kind of speed dating and I can't remember off the top of my head, but for example, like, they have got tried and tested sort of framework and process that they do take them through.

There's certain scenarios that they might put them in. Is there anything that you can add to on that side at all? But I have something I call the conflict charter at the beginning. So what is that? That is a mutually agreed document, not legally binding.

It's a informal document where you sit down and you think of all this that could go wrong. You know, what if one of us wants to leave the business? What if we get to a point where our relationship breaks down? What if, you know, we wanna bring in a CEO and the other wants and doesn't want to?

And you you bring to the table as much as you can, and you discuss it, and you say, what are we going to do if any of these if this happens? And you mutually agree this is how we're gonna act. That that works is both first of all, you've both agreed. You both mutually agreed it, so you've both committed to it. Secondly, if you get to the point further down the line when one of those situations actually materialises, you're reacting from a place of a place of calm.

K? You're not reacting. Your fight, flight, freeze response mechanism isn't kicking in where you suddenly wanna go. Because and also you've got as backup to say, right. We are now gonna do x y z. We we can't agree this ourselves. This is what we are gonna do. Mhmm.

And that just gives you, like, a safety net as well. It just means that, sometimes when you are caught in the crossfire We don't see we see red. You're not gonna react in the best way, are you? It's getting those awkward conversations out the way sooner than later. This sort of links to another to ask you, which is that honeymoon period. So, again, coming from both firsthand as well as, you know, close secondhand experience is I, for one, like, if there's a new project or a new business idea, I get so excited.

And I just get, like, my I mean I mean, I'm already quite excitable and very energetic anyway. But if I'm like, oh, this could be so good. We can make so so much money. We could do this and that. And I'm thinking about it content, like, more and more ideas.

And I'm coming up with stuff. I'm like, nay. I'm rolling over to my notebooks, scribble down more ideas. It's the first thing to mind. How can you any, again, practical tips when you're in that mode, early days, and it can be either or both the excitement of the idea or collaborating with this person.

It can feel so counterintuitive to say, I know that we are on a massive high right now, and we're both giddy and excited, but can I sit you down and do this conflict charter with you? No. I'm not at the early stages Sure. You know, a little bit further in. Yeah.

It's not you know? So it's okay to have a honeymoon? Definitely okay to have a honeymoon, but always be mindful. So this is the thing about when things go wrong Yeah. Insurance insurance policies.

Okay? We don't ever want to have to have them. Right? But in business and in life, we unfortunately do, and they're there to protect us. Mhmm.

And this is, you know, where you've got, you know, the devil and the what's your plane? The devil. The angel. Thank you. You know, here's here's the the devil going excited, loving it.

And it's sort of the angels who they're going, just, you know, let's take a minute. Exactly. There's nothing wrong with having excitement. You know, that's what drives and motivates. But it's like having that that little bit of an insurance policy to say, just to be aware. Because I know everyone gets caught up in that excitement in the early days, in that honeymoon period. But you also, you know, this is a business. And you also you you have insurance for all out of your business.

Right? This is just another one. And that is the problem why we have that statistic. Mhmm. Because those 65%, they never think at the beginning They don't.

Things are gonna go wrong. Yeah. Exactly. And so what, you know, I guess, what I'm trying to do is raise awareness to the fact that put an insurance policy in place Yeah. At the beginning. It sounds like everything's great. Can we go and do a conflict charter? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Not necessarily you know, you you get legal advice when you start a business up.

You know? This is this is sort of common sense advice if you like Mhmm. To and and I would also say, speak to those that have gone before you.

You know, you think that this is gonna be amazing. It's bloody hard doing running a business. K? Speak to you know, I could introduce you to hundreds of founders who have fallen out. Okay?

Who've spent years, you know, in legal battles in, you know, losing their mind, losing family, losing sleep, losing everything because they got locked into the most awful, awful situation Oh, such a shame. Because they haven't done their due diligence Yeah. At the beginning. It's so funny how the brain plays tricks on you, isn't it? It's kinda I always draw the analogy between, like, business and babies.

Right? Where it's like, you birth a business idea, you get excited, so you think about and how quickly, you know, is the female body can forget the pain of childbirth and labor. And it's kinda like, oh, it's like, oh, I don't it's not even on my radar Yeah. To think about all the failures and all the other people who have gone through this before because you're just filled. Again, it's like how that excitement can take over in those early days, how you're filled with optimism, and how you don't also wanna feel like the one to bring the other side down either.

You know, like, I I often think that sometimes I'd love to introduce new excited founders to a room full of founders who've gone through them right now. Yeah. A reality check. That could be a good little kinda network business idea. They couldn't they did it.

Yeah. Yeah. But That's funny. I remember I I could I mean, I I don't have enough fingers for the amount of conversations I've had with when I've spoken to people about what I do, and and they've said, I wish I met you five years ago. Yeah.

And then they sit and they vomit out their story. Oh. And, you know, it's like your heart goes out. Yeah. And and they said, I wish I'd met you x years ago.

Well, gang, this is exactly why I have Nicole on the show here. So I'm hoping that she's coming in at the early enough stage to help you guys out. I hope that this is the five years sooner point that we're already at. So again, gang, if you're going through this, if you've had experience, if you are dating a cofounder at the moment, like, do leave a comment, get involved in the conversation. So let's get back to the top causes.

So we started off with, like, basically not getting it right in the very beginning. So we talked a lot about that in terms of dating, just to summarize sort of the, like, just spending time with each other after the excitement dies down a little bit, come together for an informal conflict charter. Any other tips? Culture. Mhmm.

You know, culture feeds into so many areas of the business. So, yes, it does does come down to, you know, your values, but, you know, understanding your business, you've got to walk and talk values and whatever. And and so many, again, founders I speak to, I say, you know, what have you thought about the culture? What's important to you as a business? No.

No. No. We you know, we'll we'll talk about that later. Like, no. No.

Because that feeds into so much into who you hire. You know, a lot of misaligned hire, is aligned hires. Yeah. The way you communicate them, how you deal with stuff. Mhmm.

Mhmm. So that's one thing I I would That's a great one you bring up. And the problem with that is I think the term culture, a, is just so nebulous. It's so kind of it's super important that it's it's hard to kinda quantify, to codify. I guess this is where your values kinda come in.

But also, I feel like there is a connotation with larger organizations. Like, this is our corporate culture. But, of course, this still applies in the very early days. The problem with that is in the early days, you're so thinly stretched. Yeah.

I get that. You're just trying to, like, make ends meet, find product market fit, do your interviews, pivoting all the rest of it. That culture is such a almost a luxury much further down the line. Right? But it's not.

It feel like. Yeah. Mhmm. But, again, this is what I try and drum in is, you know, much further down the line is when the problem is gonna happen if you don't deal with it now. Yeah.

Don't say deal with it. Think about it. Mhmm. And you're right. It is like such a, I don't know, a word that's thrown around.

Yeah. Like You worked on your culture. But do you know what? It doesn't even need to be culture. It's just who you are Yeah.

What you want to be how you want to be thought about as a business, what's important to you. How you behave. Yeah. Mhmm. Sustainability.

I don't know. What whatever it happens to be, but live and breathe that. Don't just write it down on a bit of paper. Yeah. Behave it.

You know? And that that will reflect a lot. You know? Again, a lot of misaligned hires have been because and that's cost the them money, time, headspace. So when they're desperately trying to to get this business up and running or scaling it, and you're bringing in the wrong people, and you're dealing with people problems the whole time.

Massively detrimental. It's like that takes a lot of energy from you and focus. So while, yes, it doesn't feel like it's some it's a luxury, as you said. Where I'm sitting on the other side of the table, having seen when it's gone wrong, you know, I wanted rum into peep is important at the beginning. Know know who you are.

Yeah. What comes to mind for me on that is one of the very many Bezos, decision making frameworks. There's actually a whole huge article. It's absolutely humongous on all the way that Jeff Bezos thinks, and it goes on and on and on with principles and frameworks and guidance. This is where you so often cite, like, the way Bezos runs meetings and the way he makes decisions and everything else.

It's absolutely insane. I don't think anyone else can, like, to Jeff in that regard. But one of these thousands of frameworks is the urgent important quadrant. So what's urgent, not important, what's important, not urgent, etcetera, etcetera. And it feels like that as well.

It feels like what you're saying is your culture in the early days, even if it is just you and your cofounder or a very, very small team getting started, it's important. It doesn't feel urgent in the moment, but it is still important. And I think what you sort of take the pressure off there as well is, like, don't deal with it, but think about it. And I think what anchors that is the self awareness. And, yeah, you know, part of that is kind of the emotional intelligence.

How how well do you even know yourself before you get to know that well? Because that's going to translate into the culture, the precedent that you set for the company as you grow. Okay. Okay. So we sort of summarized, like, the the dating sort of stage discovery.

What are some of the other so beyond that, if you haven't quite got it right from the very beginning, what are some of the other top conflict causes that you've seen in your experience? Poor communication. The way people respond if they don't agree. Yeah. You know, sight is often Because to be fair, I don't think any of us have been taught this.

What can we do about that? So my ethos in life is always, it doesn't matter how uncomfortable it is, you have to have that conversation. So what you see with a lot of conflict avoidant leaders, for example, they will sit with it and sit with it, and then it just escalates and escalates. Neither it blows up. Mhmm.

Organization never gets discussed. So I always work first with the mindset behind it. I have to have this conversation. How am I gonna have it? And I have I have a little framework called use a map map.

Work on your mindset first. So before a difficult conversation, we often go into sort of freeze mode. God, I've got to have this conversation. I feel sick. Oh my god.

You know, Screaming match or I'm not gonna be able to say what I want, and they're so much better at saying things than me and whatever. So you can never have a decent conversation when you're in that frame of mind. So I would say, first of all, work on that. Do anything that's gonna calm you down. Now everyone, that will be different.

It will be go for a run, go for a walk, phone a friend, listen to a great podcast, read a book, I don't know, go for a cycle, meditate, whatever, listen to music, whatever. Moving your body's a good one because you just get the energy out. Yeah. Then it's got somewhere to go. So, you know, don't ever start one of these conversations when you are feeling.

Okay. Second is always have a goal. So know what you want to achieve. That's the Always know what you want to get from this conversation. If you don't agree with someone Mhmm.

K. What do you want from that conversation as the end result? Just to say, I want you to agree with me, or, I want an apology from you because that felt that hurt, or I want understanding from this conversation. Or that's your goal. Know what you want to achieve.

And then p, what everyone will often forget, not everyone. That's a huge generalization. A lot of people forget is plan. Plan what you want to go. Plan what you wanna go and say because it gives you, a, the confidence.

And sometimes we get sidetracked. You know, we go we go off, off topic, whatever. So if you've planned it out, you think, right, I want to bring this up. This is the reason why I wanna bring it up.

This is what I'd like back or this is what I'd like to change or or these are the points that I think are important to this. Do it in a note form, do it in bullet points, or if you've got a great memory, but preplan it. Because when we're in the throes of a difficult conversation, we get derailed. Yeah. And we you know, the fight flight freeze, things like cortisol levels go through the roof.

We we sort of forget what we wanna say. So that's why I would say map before you have a difficult conversation. That's super helpful.

I love all those practical tips and tricks. Why does this Why does this subject interest you so much? Why is the whole topic of conflict so important?

I just love the psychology of conflict. I love people's behaviors. I love understanding what drives people. I love understanding why the sort of red mist comes down Yeah. People react or they dig their heels.

And I just find people fascinating. You must not be conflict avoidant yourself then or a misconception. I can be. Because it's do you know what's funny, actually?

Full circle. Do you know what? Just going back to Alex Merry who you called out from the very beginning, that's another really interesting example where he is Hate public speaking. Public speaking. Yeah.

It's so funny, but that's almost his story is how he's been able how he's a better educator in that sense because Because he's so perfect. His own personal, he's had to overcome it. So I'm actually not surprised. It's just a common misconception and the same with, Lauren Curry I had on here as well who's kind of confident. It's again that common misconception of, like, she must be She's confident, super confident.

She's like, actually, no. Like, this is like the the plot twist. So what's your plot twist here? So the interesting thing is we we react the way we react in conflict is different depending on who the conflict is. Mhmm.

So with my husband, if you're watching. Shout out, mister Posner. Yeah. Don't listen because you'll know my secrets now. So, so for example, there are certain things that will trigger me, say, with my husband.

Yeah. I will react in a certain way Sure. Him. Yeah. And then there is some the the point about how we react in conflict is is, a fear behind it.

K. So what am I losing from this if I react in a certain way? Mhmm. So the conflict avoiders or the people who shy away from conflict, there is, you know, what am I gonna lose? Am I gonna lose my voice?

Am I gonna lose my reputation? Am I gonna lose my voice? Am I gonna lose full stop? Yeah. So we do behave differently depending who it's with and or, you know, maybe your, I don't know, sibling or whatever.

You you might just completely different. For sure. Yeah. If you're having a conflict with an a cofounder or business partner, again, there is something at stake Yeah. Behind this conversation.

So we will react differently. Yeah. I can't actually remember what the the original question was to this, but Why you care so much about it and if you're conflict with Brooden or not? Yeah. Definitely.

So in certain situations, I will be. Yes. Yeah. Definitely. Do you struggle more with that being an expert in this space and you recognize doing this myself?

How hard is it to take your own medicine? I I have to pause. I have to stop and think, right. What would I say to my clients in these situations? I have to pull myself out.

I have to do that a lot as well. I'm like, I give advice all the time. I have to take it for myself. Don't we? Yeah.

Best advice. Not Exactly. Do as I say, not as I do. Exactly. Yeah.

But I I do know that I think, I guess, the difference to me is, and and I I would hope any expert in whatever field they are is, you have the knowledge to know I'm conflict avoidant, but this is what I have to do. Whereas a lot of that awareness. Avoidant leaders don't have that. Yes. Exactly.

I sit and I think, right, what would I say to Steph in this situation? Yeah. And given your interest in the psychology behind it, what can you share lifting the hood on that? Like, I guess the the flight or is it the flight flight freeze, which actually, again, Alex Murray can't be very much reciting Alex Murray in this episode, but, Tisha had two more. I never even realized.

It's not just those three. He said there's no deaths. The other two oh, yes. See if you know. It'll come to me in a minute.

Do you know? I only remember one of them, so I hope you remember the other one. The other one is fawn. Fawn and flop. Flop?

Is it flop? Yes. Yes. You might be right. Yes.

You've got fight, flight, freeze, fawn, flop. Yeah. So I get, at least with the first three, the original triad, I get that that is an evolutionary survival mechanism. I understand that. But is there anything else that's interest so I guess, actually, more with the psychology on the avoidance of conflict.

I get the the fear side of it, but why I mean, I, like, can't stand it. Like, why why is it why does it feel so horrible? It's a perceived threat. So an emotional threat as opposed to a physical threat Yeah. Threat.

So there is something that as as I I guess what I was trying to explain before, it's like a a there is something that is gonna happen emotionally perceived. Yeah. It won't actually happen. But it's a self defence, self protection. If I get pushed back or if this is confrontational, it's often based on something that's happened to us in the past.

So perhaps you had a confrontation with someone in when you were a child, growing up, with your parents, Environment you were brought up in. Mhmm. And in certainly as a child from the year six months to seven years, if, let's say, something happened to you at school, let's say, in that time, our our minds don't have the capability to think, okay. Someone's bullying you. Okay.

Well, they're nasty and whatever. But what you then you make your own, decision about what that means. Yeah. That means that, I'm a bad person or or I'm not good enough or whatever, and that feels uncomfortable. And so you carry that with you Internalize it.

Your whole life until you suddenly someone stops you or you are able to recognize that. Yeah. So your reaction, every situation thereafter in many years is always the same, but you're not aware of of the why behind me. So it could be environmental. It could be, as I said, something that happened as as a child or you've seen it happen.

So your parents you grew up in a home, I'd you know, where your parents were always shouting and screaming, and then your dad left your mom. Yeah. And then so you you take that as, oh my goodness. You know, shouting is terrible. Therefore, I'm never going to, you know, enter into a conversation that feels confrontational because something bad is gonna come from you.

Do we subconsciously apply this, but and we internalize it. Yeah. And then we go out into the working world, and we don't get therapy or training. And then we go into these situations, and then all the excitement spurs us on to build the next unicorn. And lo and behold, 65% of start ups.

Then then. Are there any, have there been any conflicts that have been the worst of the worst that you've been beyond resolve? This is less helpful and more just spilling the tea now. Yeah. And, like, the causes behind that.

Like, what's beyond salvageable? It was one that springs to mind where, I was called in, actually, post grievance investigation as a mediator. And, one there's two men, and one had been accused of attempting to strangle the other one. That's how bad it got. Yeah.

And Wow. I remember sitting there, and I walked in, and I said, yeah, hi. How are you? And and today and, you know, just making polite comments. How do you think I am?

Someone's just attempted to strangle me, you know. My god. And I was like, okay. This is gonna be tough. Needless to say, you know, it didn't go very well.

There was a lot there was a lot going on there. But interestingly okay. So there's a lot of issues. I think that he I don't want to label it him, but there was obviously a lot going on for him and other things. Yeah.

Sounds like it. Got a lot going on. And the guy who apparently, you know, did the strangling, you could see adoration over the behavior of you know, I don't think I don't know if it ever happened or not. We'll never know. But what was the most interesting was the manager of these two guys.

When I spoke to him beforehand, he said, I'm around all afternoon, you know, if you need me. And suddenly, you know, halfway through the mediation, I I said to to them both, you know, I how do you feel if we bring your manager in? Because he's quite integral in all of this. Nowhere to be seen. He'd done a runner for the afternoon.

And I realized that he was part of the reason that they were in this mess because he couldn't wouldn't, not able to care of the situation. Yeah. And that is the problem with a a lot of, you know, new managers. They don't get the training. Yeah.

They they might be promoted into a role. Yeah. Yeah. Not specifically cofounder or founder related, but, you know, certainly within a, a a corporate situation. They don't have skills to do that.

Exactly. And this is so I mean, the world of work. I'm so grateful that the world of work is changing in so many ways. I'm gonna try and not open up that can of worms. But one of these areas that still needs to change is this weird, just accepted path of the the career progression from I'm interested in this field.

I'm kind of good at it. I spend time working on, and I get so good at it that I move up the rankings, and I do less of the work that I'm good at. And then suddenly, I have to do this other thing that I wasn't interested in in the first place. I don't get any guidance or training. But It's every single company.

Well, I am sure sure everyone can relate even if, like, you know, previous jobs you've had or whatever. It's insane. It's absolutely insane. Yeah. Absolutely.

You're spot on. And and there's a company. It may might be Meta. Well, I'm pretty Well, I think Nicola Mendel sent it in into Oh, I love her. Yeah.

She's great. Yeah. It could have been with Steven Bartlett. Well, I might have made this up anyway. I'm pretty sure it was her.

And I think that to this point, she said when they promote within the business, they don't necessarily promote people into man people management roles. Mhmm. They promote them sort of sideways or into another role. Mhmm. So that they still get the recognition.

They still might get a pay pay increase, whatever. But people are not necessarily interested in Exactly. People management. And it makes me wonder, kind of, like, ripping up the rule book again. Like, I feel like there is this expectation that working up to managerial roles again, apologies.

I know this is entrepreneurial, and we've gotten to a bit more corporate management, but it's it's an important topic. The the kind of the the connotations or the expectations of that is that you have a certain amount of experience, and therefore, you are a certain age. But what about if they're wireless of age and experience? So let's imagine if there were a younger person, somebody that's fresher in the workforce, but they have very high emotional intelligence. Maybe they grew up with lots and lots of siblings or a big family for and it's something that just it's a skill set in its own right that comes naturally to them that, you know, they might be in their early to mid twenties, for example, but they are good at mediating, just a, you know, a real true people person.

Like, why does it have to mean that you've had ten years in, suddenly you're gonna manage other people in this thing. Anyway I agree. I mean I think it's coming. Wonderful. It'd be wonderful.

I think it's coming. Yeah. Any, any insights you can share from that particularly bad conflict? Any learnings at the back of that before we move on? No.

I mean, I The management side of it, I guess, is the main learning. Beating my head against a brick wall. I mean, that's kind of why I stopped mediating one of the reasons and Oh. Because Wow. I felt that it was all very well me going in and dealing with the conflict.

That's you know, that one, it wasn't a successful one as it happens. Yeah. But going in and dealing with it and walking away, but the problems are still fundamentally there. Mhmm. And I'm all about making proper excuse me, making proper change.

And if the leadership you know, problems are systemic of the leadership. Yeah. 100%. So I always then train to be an executive conflict coach to work with leaders Yeah. Help them stop the all the stuff that went on there.

Stop the fish rotting from the head. Yeah. Because I was just like, this is You have to want it as well. Like, I can imagine some leaders being a bit dismissive maybe or kind of like, oh, this is just, you know, these misbehaving employees or whatever. So you've got to be you've got to be helpful and willing and open in the process.

Right? And recognize new partners. Pride must get in the way of that so much as well. That must be difficult for them to admit sometimes. A lack of awareness Yeah.

On the fact that they are creating this chaos. Yeah. Sometimes something's gotta happen to there needs to be a catalyst sometimes. Right? Either it's bad enough or it's just happened enough times that make you think, maybe it's me.

I'm the problem. The denominator here. Yeah. I don't know, though. I definitely there's a few individuals that come to mind, and I'm like, I don't know if you'll ever realize.

I think you're taking that to the grave. Yeah. But you just have to walk away from, don't you? Anyway, at least another couple of quick questions as well. One other who knew the crowd on conflict?

I feel like we could definitely keep going. But, I don't know if you're familiar with the graph. I don't know what the name is, but it basically, if you imagine kind of starting on a straight line, a big dip, and then a big kind of curve upwards, where it's basically the dynamics of team kind of formation. And it starts out with team forming and then storming, which is the dip, and then norming before you get to performing. Yeah.

Forming, storming, norming, performing. And the idea is is that you have to go through that process to get to a high performing team. So, again, sort of bring it much more back to, like, startups here as well. Right? We're forming an early team.

What's your take on getting to the storming phase as quickly as possible before you can get like, is that a necessary evil that you just have to go through? And the sooner you can do it, the better, or do you think that's unnecessary? What's your take? Think it's unnecessary. Okay.

Good. I'm glad to hear that. Yeah. The conflict avoided because I don't want to. No.

But that is the concept here is that the sooner you get through that, the better you'll be. Same as the relationships. Right? Like, have you had your first argument in the first few months? Oh, I I think I I would reword it.

Mhmm. K. I think the important thing is the ability to create enough of a safe space that people can say what they want to do. Mhmm. Sorry.

Say what they need to say. Mhmm. So that's, you know, the stormings. Learn how to have honest, direct conversations, but learn how to do it in a respectful way. Mhmm.

So you create the culture you know, conflict can also be good because out of bad things, things get better 100%. If managed the right way. Yeah. There's a lot of negative connotation to conflict, but it doesn't have to be the case all the time. A really refreshing take.

I love that. So I think that's quite important. And dynamics also, you know, when you're building a team, there's so much that goes into it, but, you know, personalities as well. You you gotta have the right people in the team. And and to work collaboratively together Mhmm.

You gotta yes. There will be those times when people get on. And, you know, that create that can nurture creativity and as well. Because you it's good to have differences of opinion, and and that can create different viewpoints Yeah. And take, something to a different level or different direction.

100%. Yeah. But you've got to listen and be open to other people's perspectives as well. Mhmm. So within that dynamic, I would say that you don't have to go through that up and down curve like you described.

But what you do need to do, learn how as a as a business, as a team, set the precedent before you start going back to culture. Mhmm. I want you to say what bring to the table. If you don't agree with me, that's fine. Yeah.

Please tell me and explain why. I want to know if I'm doing it wrong, if you think your idea is is perhaps could work better. Brilliant. Yeah. We're all in this together for the same we've got the same goal, but let's do it in the right way.

I love that. A lot of it is about putting the ego guide, isn't it? And, again, this is the leadership of saying, like, especially if you've casted a team round you of people who are subject matter experts, who know their stuff better than you. It's like, I want to be proven wrong. I want you might have a better idea.

The other thing that came to mind, people pleasing. I love, love, love this refreshing take on how conflict doesn't need to be negative because what you bring to mind for me there as well is how the people pleasing and keeping the peace can be a short term gain for long term pain. Because, again, to your point, you're not being your authentic self. You're letting something fester. You're not nipping it in the bud.

And for the wider good, you might actually have, you know, a better way of doing things. You need to have that openness and comfort to do it. Yeah. What are some of I guess this is maybe my penultimate question here as we start wrapping. What are some of the consequences of sitting on problems?

Again, being a conflict avoidant leader, cofounder. Give us a little bit more encouragement of what will happen if you don't bring these things to the table. So either they escalate an issue. It just sits and festers. You know?

It never goes away. Don't mean to be a spoiler you know, spoil everyone's misconception. Downer. Yeah. But they never go away on their own.

They don't. So you you either they fester, and then they blow up. So for the from a business point of view, and it creates bottlenecks, and it slows down decision making, and it fractures relationships. And what happens is personally, on yourself, you know, you take you carry stuff with you. Mhmm.

Think you might not, but you do. You go home. You churn it over. Yeah. Keeps you talk about it all night with your family or your partner.

So it eats away at you. So it's affect gonna affect your own mental health. But within the business, you know, if it if it just sits there, you might skim over the surface and go into people pleasers as well. You know, what they often do is they'll just sort of put sticky plaster on it. Exactly.

And just, oh, you know, brush it under the carpet. Mhmm. But let me take always pops up, rears its ugly head, and comes back again. So and then also your your to your point as well about, mirroring behaviors. Mhmm.

You know, if you are that person where you avoid conflict, everyone's gonna do that in the business. They're gonna see It's not safe to say what I need to say. Yeah. It's safe to address a problem. So that's further motivation for cofounders, isn't it?

It's almost, again, that parent analogy I always make, which is if you're not doing it for your bit, to model it for others. Correct. This is a very, very basic, simplistic question, but I do wanna just go back to any specific, like, wording, phrases. Again, like I was saying, it was almost like how to say no. It sounds very basic, but what could somebody say if they're kinda sat on something, something's kinda festering, and it feels, oh, it'd just be so much easier just to, like, avoid it, leave water under the bridge.

But what what could we say what could they put into a message? How could what could be the first mouth on a phone call? Give us a bit of that direction. Mama Pozna, we need help. Here she is.

What do we say? Here. First thing is, you know, can I talk to you about something? Which induces anxiety in anyone. I think, oh my god.

It's gonna be something bad. Okay. But it's it's direct. You know, now the other person knows you have to have a conversation. Yeah.

Now how else are you gonna start it? Yeah. You know, there's something that's been worrying or something that's been worrying me or something that's concerning me. Yeah. I talk to you about it.

Yeah. You know, let I need to have a conversation with you is, you know, I guess, for a more confident person. But if you're a real people pleaser or conflict avoidant Mhmm. Start with me. It's something that's really worrying me or upsetting me.

I'd love to have a chat with you about it. Yeah. Nice. I'd also the word that I recommend, no one uses in this order, is the but word. So if you're having that difficult conversation, and you've put your point to me, and I just respond with, yes, Bart.

That is just going to trigger. Immediately defensive. Yeah. Because what that implies is you have not listened to anything I've just said. Yeah.

So I have a a little framework that I talk about, which is called the traffic light framework. So if you're in I know that's just how do you start the conversation or whatever, but it brings me back to the yes, but thing Mhmm. Which is if you need to have a difficult conversation and you wanna get your point across and you keep getting a rebuttal back, whatever, Stop. That's your red light. Mhmm.

K. You stop. You let the other person speak. Let them get say whatever they need to do. Even if you're like, you know, you're like, it's on the tip of your tongue.

Just hold back. Don't interrupt. Do the faces and the body language because that's a communication as well. Uh-huh. K.

That's like you're doing now, you just listen. When they have said their bit, you then go to Amber, which is, okay. I've heard you said, blah blah blah blah blah. Mhmm. I hear you.

Mhmm. And I understand that you're upset because Mhmm. Can I explain my point now? When someone feels heard, k, they've you they know you have acknowledged what they've said. You're not just listened and said nothing.

You've acknowledged it. That's when someone will be ready to listen back. Mhmm. Okay. And then when they've said yes, that's psychologically, giving you their agreement as well.

You then go in green, which is, can I share with my perspective with you now? Love it. Nicole, I'm so happy that you mentioned that. Those are the magic words I was hoping were gonna come out at some point because I don't think enough people was the power in just playing back to you what I've heard. I cottoned on to this, honestly, as a bit of a sales kind of trick years and years ago, like, such a long time ago, maybe one of my, like, business development roles in an agency.

And I could see I mean, I think I'm also very perceptive. I pick up on the tiniest micro facial movements, and I noticed how much people's eyes would light up, especially if you're in person, not over Zoom and stuff, but how much their eyes would light up. And I can just tell the micro responses from the other person, the power of I've not only heard you, I'm proving. I've heard these and using their own words back. And the other reason I'm really happy that you mentioned this is I've recently made friends with an incredible expert in the field of nonviolent communicate is that what it's called?

Nonviolent NV It's NVC. NVC. N it's not what does this c stand for? Communication. Yeah.

Yeah. NVC. And she talks a lot about this as well. She talks about this concept of fingerprints. I don't know.

She's an expert in it, but it goes back to that the wounded child, that inner that younger self of, like, we all need to be seen and heard. And especially in those high stakes, high energy, red, you know, red flag to a ball conflict situations, it's such a diffuser as well, isn't it? It's you almost you want to disarm the other person. And I think it's also that reminder that we're on the same team. We both goes back to your point around vision.

We're both working towards the same goal. This is our shared vision. I hear you. I do. I hear you.

It's the respect, and everyone wants to feel respected. It's a way of demonstrating that respect. And then I love the traffic light system. Do I have permission to show where I'm coming from? Yeah.

Nicole, I could I'm shocked myself at how much I could talk. I feel like I could go go on and on and on. Alright. But we need to start wrapping up. Are there any other top pearls of wisdom that you'd like to share on this subject of conflict before I ask you my final traditional closing question?

I think there's one other thing that I would throw into here. Again, it's another one of my frame I mean, I've got so many, but Mhmm. Right based off There's two. Two. Okay.

One is, in terms of the going back to the communicate communicating piece, honesty, courage, and authenticity are a pipeline to connection rather than a barrier to communication. So Love that. You have to have those difficult conversations. You know, lay it down on the table. Be courageous.

Be honest, but be yourself. Yeah. Just say it because that will build Yeah. That will build trust and rapport. So that was one.

And the other thing is communicate with heart. So heart's heartbeat you know, It it brings so much. Everyone has a different means to it. But, my idea of heart is the letters. H is humility, e is empathy, a is authenticity, r is respect, and t is transparency.

Nice. So whatever conversation you have to have, bring those traits into It brings that human side to it, doesn't it? You're not in the battleground. Yeah. You're there human to human.

Yeah. But so so those are my Love that. Frameworks. I love that. Amazing.

Nicole, thank you so much for coming on the show and sharing. I really hope I genuinely really do hope that that comment you said that people come up to you and they're, I wish I met you five years before. I hope that this is what we're doing now. Our listeners, thank you so much for tuning in. I hope that you found this helpful.

And even just wherever you're at, again, please let us know. I'm super curious if this is something that has happened to you or your government or even just I feel like this is a lifelong thing. Like, keep it up your sleeve. There'll be future instances, whether it is with future cofounders, future roles, and in life as well. Right?

It's a conflict communication. I think it's all I just love the reframe on this as well. I love the reframe that it isn't negative, that it is it can lead to better positive things, and whether that is stronger relationships, better outputs. Nicole, thank you so much for coming on the show, and thank you too for listening.

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