Banned by Meta, rejected by VCs: How two women built a sexual health empire | Farah Kabir, Co-Founder & CEO of HANX

Strategy & Tragedy: CEO Stories with Steph Melodia is the best business podcast for curious entrepreneurs featured in the UK's Top 20 charts for business shows.

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In this week's episode, Stephanie Melodia interviews Farah Kabir is the Co-Founder & CEO of HANX, the first condom brand marketed to women.

Their product range now encompasses a variety of sexual wellness and weight management products. HANX is connecting the major life stages of women’s health for a 100,000+ strong community, with gynae-designed sexual and reproductive health products. Now available in retailers such as Sainsburys, Tesco and Boots.

Watch on YouTube via the link below or keep reading for the transcript, where Steph and Farah discuss:

• Identifying and validating a market gap - Farah and co-founder Sarah spotted an opportunity for women-focused sexual health products after an awkward encounter buying condoms in Boots, validating the market by surveying over 2,000 women before launching...
  

• Overcoming significant barriers to entry - The business faced extensive censorship with ads being banned on Meta and Google, difficulty finding manufacturers who would take them seriously as two women, and investor LP clauses that categorised condoms as "vice" products
  

• Customer-led expansion strategy - All product developments (pharmacy services, fertility supplements, menopause products, weight management) were driven by direct customer feedback and needs, not assumptions about what would sell
  

• Fundraising challenges as female founders - Experienced dismissive comments from investors about being "two little girls" in a male-dominated industry, and faced the stark reality that less than a penny of every pound of UK VC investment goes to women of colour
  

• Community as marketing cornerstone - Built a cult brand by creating relatable, best-friend-style messaging and leaning heavily on community advocacy to overcome advertising restrictions and platform censorship
  

• Work-life balance struggles - Farah openly acknowledges ongoing challenges with insomnia and burnout, viewing self-care as maintaining the company's greatest asset rather than an indulgence.

SM: Let's rewind the clocks to 2017. I read that you and your co-founder quit your jobs and you put your life savings into this business. So first of all, pat on the back for the balls for doing that. What gave you the conviction to quit the day job and put your life savings into Hanx?

FK: A healthy dose of naïveté! Ignorance is bliss. We essentially spotted a gap in the market; sexual health products that were currently available were garishly packaged, promoting a man's conquest, you know, with products like Johnny Big Boy and bright gold and red. And equally, as a woman, you're baffled by the choice. And it was around 2017 we found that dating apps were kicking off, and there was there was such a need for sexual health products that women could actually control and carry. And that's very kind of feminist and empowering as well, right?

But the irony is: a lot of people think that it's a man's job to carry condoms or women didn't feel empowered to do that. But with the rise of dating apps such as Bumble, where women are put first. We kind of had to follow that as well. And we found that the products on the market were just not speaking to women in mind. When we did the research, over 40% of purchases of condoms in the UK made by women. But yet, they've never been addressed.

SM: Was there a specific catalyst? Was there, like, a moment where you were maybe in Boots looking at the shelves to spark it before then doing your research?

FK: Yeah, that's exactly it. I bumped into my boss when I was buying Johnny's on my lunch break! I was in Boots on my lunch break when I was working in finance, and I popped out to do the usual, picking up whatever I needed for the week, including a Boots meal deal, makeup wipes, whatever else, and condoms as well. And at the time, I couldn't use hormonal birth control. The side effects just weren't working for me. So condoms are only were the only real option at the time, but the options out there were not great.

I spotted my boss in the queue and I was absolutely mortified. I was hoping he hadn't seen this bright red pack in my hand. And I was also thinking, 'does he think I'm promiscuous? What am I getting up till my lunch break? Does he think I'm getting up hanky panky?'

And I was explaining this awkward bump in to my friend, Sarah. At the time, she was working in gynae clinics, seven sexual health clinics, and she was seeing a rise of women coming to clinics with irritations from the products they were using or not carrying condoms and having STIs. And we kind of had that brainwave moment then.

There's a huge opportunity here, yet no one's tackled this in the UK or across Europe - and we love a good challenge.

So when we when we did more research, we found that there are a couple of great challenger players in the US, but no one quite here in Europe. So, before we quit our day jobs, we did some research and we calculated if there's a real market out there. We surveyed over 2,000 women - friends, network, anyone that would that we could send our surveymonkey to to find out exactly what women would want in a condom product. So like what's stopping them from buying? If they were to buy them, what would they look, feel like? Where would you buy them? And the output was Hanx.

So products that are going back to kind to the body and kind to the plant.

SM: Amazing. So let me just ask at this point in the story as well, these early days, did you want to be an entrepreneur, or was this very much kind of an organic observation gap in the market?

FK: The latter! I come from a family of entrepreneurs, but I was always quite happy being at another firm or making mistakes at someone else's firm. So there was never a true desire to look a business idea and go into entrepreneurship. So it's quite organic.

SM: I was kind of half hoping that you would say that because ironically, I think it sets you up to be a better entrepreneur.

I know so many entrepreneurs (I lecture MBA students in entrepreneurship who wanna start their businesses and all the rest of it) and so many people sucked into the allure of entrepreneur. They wanna be an entrepreneur, and they're kind of, like, going in search of either a problem to solve or much worse, they've got their own idea and that happens. So it's really interesting that you didn't have the entrepreneurial itch. You genuinely recognised the gap in the market. And this is super refreshing to hear because it's very rare to also hear about an entrepreneur who's done the research before launching. So again, even with this MBA program, these are the things we talk about; do your research, validate it - and it's rare for that to actually happen in the real world, but you did it. So, how did you know to do that?

FK: Well, it was such a big risk to take to leave. I was at Goldman Sachs. Sarah was a gyno. So quite big careers to go from banking to condoms!

It's quite a risky industry as well. So we really had to understand what the market looked like and why no one had done this before. And the piece that kept overriding was, this is such a great challenge. It it really gave me this fire in my belly to to go up against the big dogs and actually build a market that's been so stale.

So, yeah. I mean, I think my experience in finance and working with someone else was super beneficial for this.

SM: What did you take from your career in finance that helped you in your entrepreneurial journey?

FK: So many things. I mean, firstly, interacting with customers, retailers, suppliers, etcetera. Those are the same skill sets that, you know, you can bring across from working in corporate. I'm an Excel monkey. I love a good Excel spreadsheet.

And my previous role definitely taught me how to work an Excel spreadsheet. And that's super important when you're building the business, when you're fundraising. You need to know your numbers Yeah. Inside out. And I imagine, obviously, you and Sarah must be so complimentary, a yin and yang team.

So you've find found a gap in the market. You've done your research. You've got this amazing cofounder here as well. Did you require well, you put your life savings in first. So you didn't need to go out and get funding initially. Yeah. Well, we tried to get funded with with the idea.

And it was quite difficult to do that with just an idea. And the overwhelming response is that we need to see a physical product, and we need to see this come to life. What year was this at the start in? Yeah. This was business.

This is when things were good. Let's set it up now. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

But I think, again, it is an industry that wasn't tapped into at the time. So people really wanted to see what the physical product looks like. And I think on reflection, a lot of investors want to see that you've got skin in the game. Mhmm. That, you know, you're you're not just raising money off an idea, that you were also committed to it.

So that's why Sarah and I did that, and we and we supported the first product launch and got that to market. Amazing. And it made it a bit easier for us to go out and get retailers and also speak to investors because we had something physical and tangible for them to look. Yeah. Makes a difference, doesn't it?

So what were your first steps in launching? I presume you gotta find a factory, manufacture. What were, like, your minimum order quantities? Yeah. Do you find out retailers?

Like It was a it was a little bit of everything, to be honest. I think the key part for us was our were our initial feedback. Customers said 2,000, people that we surveyed. That was great for us because it kind of gave us a starting point for exactly what we wanted our branding to be, feel, tone of voice. We it it helps us understand what we wanted our products to look like.

And most importantly, we could then go to manufacture and say, we want all of these components, you know, inside free. We want vegan where possible, yada yada yada. Can you do that? The reality is it was incredibly difficult to find a manufacturer Yeah. To take us seriously because we were just two little girls in their eyes.

Exactly. But we did eventually settle on a manufacturer who believed in our vision and mission and were willing to sort of take a punt on us as well. So it was a great partnership. Yeah. And that's how we were able to get the first round.

Yeah. Amazing. Congratulations. And so let's sort of recap some of the highest highs and lowest lows in the Hanks journey because of the really of even you saying, like, starting out even with this idea Yeah. Let alone not having the physical products and the traction, but this is really new.

And it's there's such a funny paradox in the world of venture capital where they're still investors at the end of the day, so there is only so much, like, risk that they're able to take despite, you know, the term of, like, like, venture and backing, like, exciting new ideas. So let's touch on that first of all. We're definitely gonna talk about fundraising and especially as two female cofounders, yourself, team cofounder as well. I know that you've spoken quite openly about that in the past. I know you've got lots of great stories there.

But entering into such a regulated market, I imagine it was much harder than you expected. What were some of the biggest challenges now that you've kind of launched and getting it across the line, and how did you overcome those? I mean, there were so many challenges. Yeah. The reality it's one thing having an idea, and it's another thing bringing it to life.

Yeah. And it requires having a trusted network and a community of supporters. So I would speak about our idea to anyone that would listen to us. Amazing. I would go to as many events as possible and network and find the right people.

You don't know who the right people are. Right? Until you get in the room chubby, and they may say, oh, this is great. I used to work in x and maybe I can help with y. Or I know someone that's interested in this space.

So You just never know. That definitely helped. But the reality is Sarah and I had to get stuck in on anything and everything in the business. And I think one thing I've realized is I was super impatient when we launched Hanks. Yeah.

I think going from an investment banking career to launching your own business and working with different types of people such as creatives, you can't rush certain processes. And I was super impatient. I wanted everything done yesterday. Yeah. Which I don't think is a bad thing with a cofounder.

Like, you need to create a sense of urgency. Right? You need to, like, get the you know, stoke the fire, get things going, and, like, just that speed of momentum as well. This is one of the greatest strengths that startups have. You can move quicker.

You can do things. So Yeah. Don't do yourself a disservice on that one, Farrah. Thank you. The team might say otherwise.

I usually play that often, give deadlines that are usually a couple of days before they need to be. Get it done. Keep moving. So you gotta just get stuck in. Do like, the counterpoint to that is if you're sort of attending events and networking and everything.

The counter, of course, like, avoiding burnout in the process. But I relate I did the same starting my last bit. It was just like saying yes. Because you guys Yeah. You don't know.

Yeah. You're just kinda putting it out there. Yeah. But, you know, okay. You're excited initially, so that energy definitely carries you.

But did any of those sort of, like, more personal struggles come up for you in terms of just managing your own energies and avoiding burnout? Yeah. I'll be honest. I'm still struggling to find the balance. It's really hard, and people make it look very easy.

And I wish people would be a bit more open about being a founder, and I thrive off the energy of building something that's exciting and mission driven, and people can resonate with. Mhmm. But the downside to that is all my energy is spent doing that. But by the time I get home, I'm so exhausted Mhmm. That I don't wanna look at anyone talk to.

That makes perfect sense. I get it. I think being a founder is really tricky having that that life balance with work. But at the same time, Hanks is part of my life. Yeah.

Exactly. I wouldn't change it. I live and breathe the brand. But I think I try and find more balance. Mhmm.

And I don't know the answer to that other than probably being a bit more regimented with my time and how much I do. It's actually a really interesting topic to dive into a bit more because I feel like the consensus is, you know, balance, gotta take care of yourself. But I don't know. I'm also kinda like, there is an argument for, like, if this is what excites you, what lights you up, you're on a mission, you got, like I don't know. I'm like, why lean into it?

It's not Yeah. Negative. I feel like there's such a like, burnout's been such a tricky word for you years. Like, it doesn't need to mean Yeah. You love it and it's positive.

I agree with that wholeheartedly. But when you see physical and mental side effects that you're ignoring, then you know the very exciting part is also having a knock on impact on you. And and, you know, I'm you know, I can openly say I I have really bad insomnia. And I think that is a probably a side effect of being an entrepreneur and working long hours and being very excitable. Yeah.

And energetic. Before the I mean, don't get me wrong. Work work can find out me a hint of that. But, you know, I I'm mindful that there are triggers for me. And certain times, like, insomnia is bad.

I put that down to work related stress. Cool. But I think all entrepreneurs face face some parts of that, whether it's insomnia or otherwise. Mhmm. So I think it's important to recognize, yes, you can totally enjoy and love what you do and thrive from that.

But if you're seeing physical side Yeah. Your body's so missing. Then your body needs taken care of. And so, you know, the little downtime that I do get, people know I absolutely love a good spa. No.

That sounds fidgety, but I am a spa as you know, and that's my way of kind of switching off just finding a good spa, zoning out a good book. Just Are you getting good products in the spas? Not yet. Well, the a couple of hotels. So we are in Estelle Manor, and I've been dying to try out their spa, so I need to get there.

Perfect. See? R and D business trip. Great shout. Due diligence.

That's what surely surely going to the spa is actually a business expense. You're taking care of yourself as the company's greatest asset. That was actually really interesting on the show with this as well with my last business. Especially, it's, like, women on it such a trade, but, like, there's this reframe of thinking of yourself as the company's greatest asset and almost having a little bit of that disconnection, that disassociation. Like, if you were if your job were to look after the company's most important or one of the most important, like, assets, how would you how would you structure their diary?

How would you meal prep for them? Yeah. You know? And, suddenly, you're kinda like, how would I take care of somebody else? Sure.

That's a really good point. And it's just this kind of and then it doesn't feel, like, as, I don't know, selfish. You're not putting yourself to the bottom of the pile because it is a business priority, almost like seeing it from that perspective. So going to the spa is looking after the company's greatest asset, plus you're doing your due diligence along the way. Yeah.

Okay. What are you doing at the moment then? So you're still figuring it out. So you've got spa breaks, anything else, like self care tips? It's mainly trying to find time.

So small breaks, spending time with people that I love. Of course. I have a lot of friends overseas. I use that as an opportunity to get away and visit them. That's an absolute friend, though.

So honestly, just finding things that bring me joy. And that can be as simple as having a day out with friends or going to spa or I've gotten into the late. I will say I've got I've got the running bug. Good. Although I can feel some injuries coming along.

Like, that's the impatient side of me just not stretching and going straight for it. Yeah. Brilliant. Alright. That.

So I asked about some of the challenges before. You did say that there have been many. What was one of the biggest and most unexpected challenges, especially in those kind of earlier days? Just how much censorship there is around this space. Yeah.

So, you know, when I launched Hanks, I thought, great. We've got the product. It's easy. Let's get it to market. Talk about it.

The reality is there's such censorship around the product. Often, people see them as adult related products. And, you know, even from from the perspective of investment, when we try to go for VC investment, a lot of LPs that back VCs have clauses that say we weren't invested in things like vice related products. And because we were selling condoms, they're seen as adult, which is vice. So we just didn't expect that that actually, Pete, there was such a stigma attached to building these products that Especially in The UK.

Right? These British Yeah. Breed. So it's yeah. It made it it did make quite so raising investment was very difficult for us, and that's something we didn't initially realize.

Mhmm. And then there's other parts of censorship, which, again, we didn't foresee. So a lot of our adverts used to get banned Yeah. That did. On Meta.

On Google. Yeah. Again, like, in the early days as a small team, we'd spend so much time Yeah. Figuring out why. You know, it'd be a standard bot that would say denied, and we would have to pivot and amend creative and change copy of what sticks.

And now we're in a better place because we have about eight years of learning behind it. But the reality is those things are so tough for a business to really grow and launch themselves. 100%. And Meta Ad Suite is not the easiest to use whatsoever. So on the marketing front, what did you have to default to with getting, like, Meta Ads Band?

What were some other channels that because also you kind of got constraints create creativity. Right? So I'm sure you know Cindy Gallop, for example, where, like, she leads massively into public speaking and casting everything because she can't advertise in the same way. You have to try other creative marketing. Yeah.

I mean, we've got an amazing marketing team. Emily, who leads our marketing efforts, is incredible. And everything she does from, like, the content to the actual ads and our and our social media. The reality is we lean in really well to our community. We listen to our community and they're our advocates.

They're our early adopters and our influencers. So whenever we've had these issues, which I will say I personally in the early days felt a bit shy about talking about such issues, now I'm much more vocal about it. So I will use things like LinkedIn to talk about such experiences. And often, it will be our community that rallies together. Yeah.

You know, we had, a big web platform that we will know very well beginning with us. They were going to pull our, facility to sell our products on our website with, I think, seven or fourteen days notice, which is not very long for a small company to find another web platform and build that. And I put it on LinkedIn, and it had an incredible amount of impressions that the most shared post I've ever done got in front of the CEO of that Wow. Web hosting platform. He said, email me, and we were able to have a conversation and talk about how difficult it is as a small women's health brand, censorship around it.

So Which wouldn't have happened without everyone getting rallied on it. Yeah. And so I think the community is key here Yeah. In this. What was the reason, sorry, just to ask why they wanted to was it just because of the nature of your product?

Because of the product. Wow. Yeah. What I'm kinda picking up on is the one of the, like, strongest foundations to have engaged community, having advocates. Like, Hanks is like a cult brand.

And in order for that to happen, you've got to have, like, this strong mission, this origin story. People have to have, like, you know, a manifesto that they resonate with in all like, I think it's just something that you can't shortcut. You can't kinda leapfrog over that. It sets up everything else. Force and it kinda 10 x's all of your other kind of efforts around community social and everything else.

So is there any more you wanna expand on in terms of, like, the mission, the manifesto, that foundational step for Hanks becoming such a cult brand? Yeah. I mean, thank you. Yeah. That's That's such a Yeah.

Lovely compliment. I think when we launched Hanks, we wanted a brand that was real and relatable. A brand that doesn't gloss over the realities of being a modern day woman, and all the products, whether it was within sexual health, intimate wellness, menopause, fertility, they're all very traditional and stale and quite inaccessible. So we always wanted to make it a brand that was relatable. Almost like your best mate speaks to someone a bit cool that knows a bit more that you want to learn from.

We don't wanna make things clinical or like you're learning about sex ed in school. That's such a great personification. I love that. Your best friend's big sis. Yeah.

I love that. And so we always use that as our North Star. Like, how can we make our content and our tone of voice real and relatable? I think that's definitely helped. It's so differentiated Yeah.

Through, doesn't it? And and I think that's been the North Star for us. And I think then when we look when we launched Sexual Health, we were so surprised at how many people were sliding into our DMs with their personal situations. We were very honored, but equally, we couldn't support them because we couldn't you know, we weren't medically advised to do that. But it got us thinking, wow.

If this is a talking for a first prod product, people are willing and open to talk about this. And the rest of women's health is so fragmented. There's such an opportunity here to connect the milestones of women's health. So perfect segue into your product expansion. So tell us about that.

And, again, I have to give you a pat on the back as well for, again, sort of following a genuine market demand again. This is this is just such a common mistake I just see happen all the time with budding entrepreneurs, first time founders, where it's like, they've got all these ideas. And I'm just like, your idea is what's like the ideas are so overhyped and overvalued. If there isn't a market, if nobody wants this, you have the best idea in the world, but this isn't gonna be a business. So this again is another proof point.

You're like, people are proactively coming to you Yeah. These things. Makes sense with Sarah, your cofounder. So talk to us about that expansion from condoms initially Yeah. Into this other range.

We really do follow the customer. We we listen to our customers. We find out what they want because they're ultimately I'm sorry. There's no point in building a product if you think it's going to be really popular or you like it. You're not necessarily your customer.

You need to listen to who your base are and what they actually want. Mhmm. And that's what we've followed throughout. So even when creating our products, we involve our customers with them. Yeah.

We get we'd have, like, focus groups where they come in and they try 24 concealed different products, a bit like Big Brother where they rip out the brand and they see they they trial and see. And and what we've what we found is organically, these products that we've built over time are due to customer need. So if you think about sexual health condoms and lubricants, when women were condom subscription, the main reasons were I I've broken up with my partner, fair enough, so I don't need them, or I am moving on to long term hormonal contraceptives, or I'm trying for a child. So great opportunity for us to build in those areas too. And, coincidentally, when COVID hit, we asked our consumer base, what do you need right now?

And there was an overwhelming response around people not being able to get GP appointments. They were too scared to queue up at the pharmacy to get their approved prescriptions. So we used that as an opportunity to build pharmacy. Mhmm. And in 2021, we launched HanksFix.

So we offer prescription birth control, plan b, so the morning after pill, vaginal health treatments, all available online on our platform. Again, following the need of the customer Yeah. Which lent itself really well. And then when you move on to the other area of our products, we found that, we've got a couple of core audiences here. We've got 25 to 35 year olds at our core.

And, actually, within that, you have women who are looking at the next stage of their life. Are they planning for a child to freeze? Fertility is a key area there. So we built supplements that are high grade, ingredients, known as the chemicals, usual. Hank's kind to the body, kind to the planet.

We launched supplements for pregnancy, and we launched supplements for menopause and for libido. So second audience were menopausal audience, so 45, which we organically built because we found a lot of the private gynies in our lubricant because it's the most natural on the market. Oh. Side effect of menopause, dryness, loss of libido, etcetera. Yeah.

So really building our audiences, which has worked really well, which takes onto our final product, which is weight management. Mhmm. And that was quite controversial. But for us, we found, again, it's about offering our customers choice. Yeah.

And and this was a choice that we could make available on our pharmacy platform. Menopausal women can be insulin resistant, set full to weight gain. Again, if you're going through your fertility journey, you might be looking to get to a healthy weight. So, again, it's really offering Hanks as a women's health platform Yeah. That can serve you at whatever stage of your health.

Exactly. That makes perfect sense with even how you specifically phrased it with that description I mentioned, you know, in my intro with, like, those key life stages for women's, the different, you know, these huge life changing phases that we go through. We've sort of teased a bit around the fundraising, so I wanna pick up on that topic again. You got the business kind of launched life savings. At which point in terms of traction milestones did you go out to fundraise?

You've already mentioned it was quite a challenge as well, so I just wanna double click into that pulpit. Fundraising felt like a full time job, to be honest. Yeah. Throughout. With two cofounders.

Yeah. Did you split the roles at all? Yeah. So I did I did the fundraising. Being the finance.

Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. Couldn't get away from it, sadly. But also what's working against you Yeah.

To cut you. But Yeah. You've got these strengths in terms of your expertise, but you're also the main founder of the two. And so we know all the stats. We know how difficult is unconscious or conscious bias.

I would sorry. I wanna I wanna hear the rest of what you're gonna say, but, obviously, I need to ask you about those other challenges, investors. I'll be really honest, and this isn't me being arrogant, but I thought having experience in a name like Goldman Sachs and being a chartered accountant would make it quite easy for me to fundraise. It's quite the opposite, and I think there's this unholy trinity for us. Not only were we, creating products in the sexual health space, which we're seen as adult.

Right. We were in the consumer sector, which is very difficult to fundraise for. And then I'm also a female founder and a female founder of color. Yes. So we know the British business bank stats.

Of every pound of VC investment goes to women. It's even less than a penny for a woman of color. Yeah. So, you know, I was really up against it, and it was incredibly challenging in the early days. But, eventually, we found our core audience actually being our investors.

So we were mainly backed by angels, so individuals, rather than institutions. And a portion of those are our customers who have actually reached out to us and said, when will we part of your journey? Are you looking to raise, etcetera? And in terms of your question about when did we choose well, we needed to quite quickly in order to really market the product. Mhmm.

So we did raise our first SEIS round, early doors. And we I would a rolling close, but every couple of years, we would do a small funding round to top up on that. What were some specific responses from investors that have stuck with you since those early days of fundraising? So many. In the early days, things like, what do you two little girls know about a male dominated industry?

Terminology. Yeah. Yeah. We'd have, you know, well, you're too what do you know? Like, this is a male dominated industry.

Women don't buy condoms. Women buy condoms. Don't see a market for this. Some more pretty derogatory stuff. Does that fuel your fire even more to prove them wrong?

Yeah. I love it. When Exactly. When someone tells me I can't do something Yeah. It makes me want to prove this wrong.

100%. And I think also what it taught me in the early days, I was quite stuck on trying to convince people otherwise. Mhmm. Now I just cut the cord. If if Yeah.

If their behavior's like that, like move on, find someone out. Like, we know who our investors should be. Yeah. Love that. Love that.

Love that. That's such a great mantra to apply to so many different areas as well. Like, even in, like, that's been a huge, like, shift for me too. I'm just like, are you interested? Are you into it?

No. Yeah. If there's a bit of that persuasion, then fine. Like, I'm not gonna do that. But the amount of time and energy that you can waste on trying to convince, persuade, whether it is investors or customers.

So I love that that switch for you. We talked about your well, actually, sorry. Sticking with the fundraise. What kind of lessons can you share from that experience? You said how difficult it was.

Any other pearls of wisdom before we do move on on that? Find allies. Speak to as many people as you can. Try and you know, there weren't many role models for me in the early days, but now there are more. So I try and find other founders who've been in this space, who have built businesses, speak to as many people as you can.

What's the worst that they'll say? No. I'm too busy to to help you. That's fine. Yeah.

It's a numbers game investment. So, definitely speaking to as many people. And also, it's not a yes until it's signed. So just be mindful. You know, you I've had many times where I've been super excited, and I think something is a done deal.

And for one reason or another, it's not quandored where we'd hoped. So don't that kind of false security. Just be mindful. Yeah. Yeah.

It happens more often than you think. Like, some of the other guests that I've had on here as well where they're like they line up, you know, talent. They wanna hire. Yeah. Then at the very, very last of the eleventh hour, it doesn't come through for whatever reason.

Yeah. And you've been in months and months of due diligence. It can still until the money's in the bank. Totally. And that's the other thing.

It takes a very long time. It takes a lot longer than you think. How long did it take you, and how many rounds have you done? We've done about five rounds, I think. Did it get easier?

They're like kids. Right? They're different at every different at different stages. Yeah. Different lengths at different stages.

Exactly. We've obviously launched a range of products. Right? So it's almost like launching a few new mini businesses every time. Yeah.

Where you got to prove those out as well. Right. Right. What have been the key differences between, like, the five not each five, but what's I guess from the first to the last, what's kind of the biggest differences? Well, I guess the stage of our business, the tenure.

Does that make it easier? It can make it easier, but it can make it more difficult. So it can make it easier, big, nice brand. Yeah. It can make it harder because they may expect bigger milestones from you or, you know, there's more historical data. It's really hard to pinpoint what the changes are because every single round we've done, we've had a different element of our business to launch. So, like I said, the pharmacy was a huge piece, and then we've gone into supplements and weight management. Pretty different each time.

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