Hector Hughes of Unplugged: Digitally detoxing the world one cabin at a time

Get £50 off your Unplugged stay: UPMSTEPHMELODIA50

Strategy & Tragedy: CEO Stories with Steph Melodia is the best business podcast for curious entrepreneurs featured in the UK's Top 20 charts for business shows.

Hosted by Stephanie Melodia, Strategy & Tragedy features candid interviews with entrepreneurs who have scaled - and failed - their businesses - sharing their lessons in entrepreneurship along the way. From Simon Squibb of 'What's Your Dream?' Internet fame to Lottie Whyte of Sunday Times Top 100 Fastest-Growing company, MyoMaster. From exited founders like Nick-Telson Sillett to subject matter experts like Alex Merry in the public speaking arena and Matt Lerner, the GOAT of Growth.

This is one of the best podcasts to listen to if you're looking for educational and inspirational content on Spotify, Apple, Google, Amazon, YouTube or watch the clips on Instagram, LinkedIn, TikTok, or YouTube Shorts

In this week's episode, Stephanie Melodia interviews Hector Hughes - the Co-Founder & CEO of Unplugged, the platform for digital detox cabins as featured in The Times, Cosmopolitan, The Telegraph, and Evening Standard with over 12,000 guests served to date.

In this interview, Steph and Hector cover:

• The benefits of digital minimalism

• Taking risks and going from zero to one

• Contrarian takes on the Lean Startup model

• Hector's transformational entrepreneur journey

• The importance of brand positioning (especially in our AI marketing world)

• How a commitment to a vision and even creating friction has paid off

• Fundraising challenges and securing angel investment

• Lessons along the way

• Building alternative wealth

Watch on YouTube via the link below or keep reading for the transcript:

SM: It is my absolute pleasure to welcome my next guest, Hector Hughes, the CEO and cofounder of Unplugged, the platform for digital detox retreats featured in the likes of Cosmopolitan, The Times Evening Standard, and has now served over 12,000 guests today.

Hector, welcome to Strategy and Tragedy.

HH: Thank you so much, Steph. This is the highlight of my week.

SM: Mine too. Highlight of my of my month and year. Great to have you.

Alright, let's kick off with the importance of digital detoxes: why exactly are they so good for us?

HH: Well, in the last ten, fifteen, twenty years, our lives have changed dramatically. So, obviously, the rise of first the Internet, then the smartphone, we've gone from spending no time online to eleven, twelve, thirteen hours a day. And that fundamentally completely rewires our brains. It completely changes our state during the day. And so for most of us, we check the our phones first thing in the morning, and then you're checking them basically all day. There's some research that it takes about fifteen minutes to regain your composure after a distraction. And for most of us, there's not fifteen minutes where we're not checking it, so we basically spend our days just in this constant state of distraction, right until the last thing at night. And what that does is it it just has us in the state of constant overstimulation, and it's so normal now that we we just don't notice it.

What going offline does for a a long period, so, you know, we we, focus on three days, is it takes about a day for the mind to settle down. So the first day, I should feel a bit more anxious. You might get a phantom buzzing. You feel a bit like you've lost a limb. And then we start to get this deep sense of calm. It feels almost supernatural, but the crazy thing is that's how humans are built to operate. We're not built to walk around with the low level anxiety and and stress that we do today.

So, really, it's just helping people return to their natural state, and, in that state, our bodies can do what they're built to do, so they can heal, they can recover, they can calm down.

So I think there's so so many of the issues today, whether it's physical health, mental health, are just because of the environment. That we just live in such a crazy environment now. And we haven't biologically changed from our hunter gathering days, but the world we live in massively has.

SM: Yeah, absolutely. I heard you say about, observing guests kind of before and after their weekend in a cabin, and you saying about them looking like ten years younger, which is hilarious. Was there, like, an epiphany for you?

I also read that you you went on a silent meditation retreat for, like, ten days. I think you read the book, like, Digital Minimalism. So I know that, like, you started coming across these things. What helped you kind of arrive at starting Unplugged?

HH: So it it really was a series of fortunate events. In 2019, I was working for a tech startup at the time. It was very exciting. We were, you know, high growth international expansion, bit of a mess behind the scenes as these things often were. But I I just felt burnt out, dissatisfied with life.

I was I was going out a lot of that time, busy all the time, spending all day on my phone, and just started to get more into meditation and reading and read digital minimalism as as you mentioned. That was early in 2019. And, they talk a lot about unplugged and unplugging there. I thought, Unplugged would be such a great name for a business and part of that idea. Then had a really intense summer, and a friend of mine had recommended the sign of retreat, and I initially laughed it off. I thought, I'm not the kind of person who can go and do a meditation retreat. What would the guys at work think? And then eventually, thought, what have I got to lose? Got myself out there. And it was ten days. It was this beautiful Buddhist temple on Topher Mountain. And the best thing about it is when you get there, they take your phone off you, and you just spend ten days completely cut off from the outside world.

And as soon as I handed over my phone, I just felt this, like, this liberation.

This whatever else is whatever's going on out there just doesn't matter for ten days, which is a a profound and, yeah, wonderful feeling. And basically ended up coming back from that very cliche, quit my job a week later and and got started on unplugged.

SM: What was so interesting specifically about how you mentioned before you were like, I'm not the sort of person who does that, which just speaks to, like, the power of how we self identify. I'm obsessed with that whole topic and could do a whole podcast just on that. So it's like, I'm not the the sort of person who'd go off and do this, like, silent retreat.

And then immediately after, you then said, oh, what would the guys at work think? I see this happen all the time. It's first, how do I identify and then what other people's perceptions.

So, what switched it for you?

HH: Well, I mean, that that was very much the theme in my life up until that point. I was completely governed by what other people think of me. I think there was a a deep insecurity. I've always had unfailing self confidence in some aspects of myself and I noticed this. A real insecurity in other parts of myself. So I really wasn't comfortable in myself, and I just ended up a lot of the the drinking, drug taking, like, going out was just doing To numb living life. It was it was numbing that and also just living life on other people's terms. Like, I was a real people pleaser. Still still am recovering, people pleaser. And, I think up until that point, there was just this deep insecurity and just concern with what other people would think. The silent retreat really was a a pivotal moment in the sense I came back from there, and I just felt completely free of all of that. It it's not Interesting. I definitely went through a period after that feeling like I'd solved all the problems in my life, and then life happens and more problems emerge down the line. But definitely for a period, I just felt this just deep sense of, one of the things they teach there is that we have in in Buddhism is that we have everything we need to be happy. So we think we need to add something. We think we need the job, the relationship, whatever it might be. But, actually, it's it's about taking away, and it's taking away the things that bring unhappiness, like worrying what other people think about you. So, yeah, I just left that retreat with just complete assurance. I've always had this assure I've always had this deep conviction that my life would just work itself out. Like, I used to my school reports that my teachers used to bemoan what an irrational optimist I was. But, but, yeah, the I'm a big believer that if you just believe things will work out.

SM: Like, every entrepreneur is an irrational optimist.

HH: And I guess it's trouble as well. Right?

SM: So one thing is having this epiphany, this deep realization of the benefits of unplugging. Another thing is having the confidence to place such a massive bet on this whole digital detox premise. To build your business around it, to get investment, which congratulations. You've had amazing, like, and investors kinda come on and support your amazing mission. But that's another level.

So, where does that confidence come from to place such a massive bet on people spending less time online?

HH: Yeah, it's interesting. I've thought a lot about it and life just how these things happen. So after university, I applied to a whole bunch of grad schemes and got to the final stage for three. One was teach first, and I thought I would do that and then go into investment or something. One was a high frequency trading job, and the other one was an accountant at a private wealth, you know, accountancy. And I would have been terrible at all those jobs, but they would have just let me down such different parts in life. And so I think to answer your question, there's a you really are the sum of the people you spend the most time with. And so I think being in that startup environment, I was the second employee. My cofounder was the first employee. So I had a good relationship with the founders. And so I was around them. Two of my closest friends started businesses that that same year. So it just really normalized it for me. And then I think that combined with, the the unlock at the retreat, really, of just being like, things will work themselves out. And I I can when I came back from that, I just felt like anything was anything was possible.

Coupled with personality type wise, I'm sure this is a common one in finance as well. I definitely have the gambler, the risk taker in me. It seemed like the obvious choice as well. Haven't looked back.

SM: I love that. So how do you get started in terms of, like, you know, MVPs, lean startup principles, given that you are, you know, connecting guests to cabins? What was, like, your first cabin? How did you get started? Literally zero to one.

HH: Yeah. I I'm I'm not a fan personally of the whole lean startup.

SM: That's so controversial! I love you saying that. Interesting. Let's talk about that. Why are you not? That's really refreshing.

(I'm so excited because, a, I agree, and, b, I don't think I've ever heard anyone say that, so this is a safe space to go there).

HH: Well, I think, first of all, it's just my personality types. Everything I'm about to say, I think, is just maybe rationalizing my laziness and not consider the step. But I'll tell you a story to to highlight it So spoke to this really fantastic growth guy, like, very well known guy, who we worked with at the previous startup. And so had him. He was one of the most impressive people I knew. So told him about the idea of Unplugged and just asked his advice. And he said to me, like, why are you going through so so I was telling him, we're just gonna order a cabin and see what happens. And you only need to pay the deposits. It's like £2,000 and then he said order a cabin, and then see what happens. And, you know, if we pay the £2,000 deposit, then a cabin will be on the way, and we have to find the money for it. We have to find somewhere to put it. And, you know, and then the business should just take care of itself.

SM: The opposite to the things so, like, instead of market first, you product first is what you're saying, basically. Find them the cabin.

HH: I mean, from from the product point of view, it was very much like, I think I would wanna use this, and I think this it is very, like, intuition led rather than research led. Like, the whole research thing. You know, it's like the whole you can find it. Customers will just tell you they won't pass the cars type of thing. That there's a there's a sense of just, like, willing it into existence.

So this guy basically said to me, like, why are you going through all the trouble of ordering a cabin? Why don't you just put up a landing page and drive traffic to it and see if people actually wanna lock their phones away?

The issue with that approach is they probably would have said they didn't wanna lock their phones away. But that's not the change we wanna make in the world. That's not the company we wanna build. And so:

I think there's a lot to be said for being unreasonable and for taking a stand.

I think you've you sometimes gotta be contrarian and and just say, like, this I think this needs to exist in the world. I'm gonna place this bet. And, so my methodology rather than lean startup is burn the boat. It's like, let's fucking do this, and then we gotta finish and then we gotta figure it out. Because this whole thing is, like, validating invalidating. You can always invalidate an idea. I'd much rather I'd be like, let's just let's just find a way to figure it out.

SM: Hector, I'm so leaning more on your side of the fence with this. If you're doing something different, if you're being contrarian, if you're being a bit disruptive, changing behaviors, putting out a landing page to see if people are gonna resonate with that core value prop may not always, like, cut it.

So how did you overcome those barriers?

(Because I guess you've still got you've still got those same barriers to overcome, haven't you? Like, okay, one thing is people giving away their email address because they're interested in potentially signing up to this. Another thing is booking and parting money to go and stay at a cabin. So that's that whole early validation, isn't it?)

HH: For sure. Yeah. So we've been very bullish on the product and experience of spending three days offline. The hypothesis has always been that that's enough. If we can just get people to experience that, like, that that will do the job for us.

There's obviously a huge amount of legwork that needs to happen to get there. So, you know, we launched it was really hard to get people to come and stay. When we did get people to come and stay, they wouldn't lock away their phones.

But then as we've just doubled, tripled down on that, so so we made some choices in the early days that added friction and actually made it harder to get customers. So we fixed it three nights. There are other cabin companies out there that don't do digital detox, and the industry average stay is one point eight nights. So moving that up to three, people have to take more time off work. It's more of a commitment. And then, you know, taking the hard stance on on locking the phone away and that's the point.

And and there's so much noise these days that it's really about cutting through. So I think both from a product experience point of view, it's a much better experience to be offline than to not be offline. And then also on the marketing point of view, like, it evokes such a strong emotional reaction in people when you talk about phones and get when we tell people what we do, they react one of two ways. They're either like, oh my god. That sounds terrible, or get me there right now. It evokes a strong reaction. And they have to really cut through the noise and be emotive. That is something that just compounds and compounds and compounds. I think the hypothesis at the start is this is always gonna be a marketing problem. It's kinda like an airline. You have a perishable item, which is a bed or a seat, and it's all about filling that. So it's all about occupancy. And so it's really about we've really built a marketing company. And it's just such an amazing asset towards that.

SM: Super interesting. I read a case study before about, like, how Starbucks is actually a fintech company. I love how you say, well, actually, you're you know, it's a travel platform or accommodation site. Actually, it's it's a marketing company. It makes total sense.

HH: What what what I find fascinating about the whole journey with just running a startup is every year, you change completely change your perspective on what the business you're running is. And, yeah, you just have these, like, moments where you're not, oh my god. This is a completely different business to what I thought it was.

SM: I'll check back in with you next year and see what you think Unplugged is!

What were some of the early objections that you're getting from customers?

Did you get any funny, like, comments or reactions, especially at the start?

HH: Yeah. I mean, we just got people flat out refusing. So we were checking people in ourselves at the start. They would say if I have an Instagram, try to come and stay. And we tried to take their phone off them, and they would look at us like we're crazy. Are you actually gonna give our phones away? You need to be dressed in black and a balaclava. And, and what we realised is that it's won or lost before people even get there.

So you need to know that the whole brand needs to be around: 'This is what you're coming to do.' Because if there's any doubt in their mind - which is why digital detoxing doesn't work as a add-on, right?

If you if you run a hotel and you say, like, come and stay, and if you wanna do a digital detox, you can. And people might be like, I might do. And they get there, and they're like, I'm not You need to kinda commit to it. You need to tell your friends, tell your family, you know, clear your diary. And everyone, everything in the cabin then needs to be set up to accommodate that. So you need all the things that that you would need your phone for.

That's really the the product.

SM: How do you connect your commitment to what you're doing with the VC model?

(I'm aware you've got, like, angel investors. Are you venture backed?)

HH: We've got I think we've got a couple of investors that would describe themselves as VCs. But we we, you know, we haven't got VCs on the board. You know, we've never taken a a big VC check. And going forward, we'll you know, we're not gonna do the series VC deals. It's actually much more debt geared going forward. It sits outside of classic VC feature.

SM: So with your investors, you're not going for that kind of, like, aggressive hyperscale growth or cost. You're remaining very committed to that mission and and, you know, who it's right for not compromising on that. And so have you ever kinda come up against, like, investors who that, like, doesn't work for because they want that kind of market share?

HH: Yeah. I mean, 100%, you come across investors all the time who just want something different. It's like, fine. Well, this is a more for you. But but also, like, the the hypothesis is that this is gonna unlock a bigger market and a bigger opportunity. It's just a different game. It's not about like, if you're building an AI company right now, you have to blitzscale like hell and sell it ASAP unless you're building one of the the, you know, ones that are gonna be the infrastructure because that you're just building on quicksand in that market. For us, it's so early in this space. Unplugged is really about moving society in a different direction because all the momentum in society is towards spending more time online. And just by existing, we start a conversation around to start people thinking about their relationship with their phones. But then if you go and actually experience that, and spend three days offline, then you just have this massive shift in perspective.

The more time you spend offline, the more you crave time offline.

So, really, as a company, we're trying to shift society in a different direction. Obviously, hugely bullish on technology, here to stay, blah blah blah, next evolution of humanity. But I think as life moves online, it becomes rarer and more valuable to spend time offline. And so, you know, we we wanna

SM: And change people's behavior is just gonna take that time, isn't it? So what was your thought process around getting investment? Like, given that it isn't that kind of classic hyperscale, like, grow VC growth model, was there a point where you were like, we definitely need some outside capital to, like, boost this? What we're going for angels? Talk me through the rest of your day.

HH: Well, it's a very capital intensive business because you gotta pay for the cabins. We flip flopped on that as well. So we paid for the cabins. We then went asset light for a little while and then decided to double down on on owning the assets ourselves.

SM: So you actually own how many cabins now?

HH: We own most of our cabins. We've got 40 cabins at the moment, we own maybe we own 26 of them, and then going forward, we'll own 90% of new cabins.

SM: Wow. So same before, you're a marketing company. This I mean, twenty twenty four, I guess, you thought of yourself as a property business. Owning them.

HH: Yeah. We don't own the land. Like, this is the thing. It's it's a brand play. And then we monetize that with cabins and stays and all of these things. So we've I mean, the it's been a a journey on the investment side of things. We basically started capital sense business in a zero interest rate environment. We don't qualify for EIS, which is where most angel money goes in The UK. They're particularly tight around overnight accommodation and the thing that kind of looks like property. They don't want people putting their property place through. But EIS is really designed for spending money on a tech team where if you've got a product known once, you're left with zero.

SM: So why didn't you go down, like, the Airbnb asset light model?

HH: Because it's not the business we wanna build. And it's not the change. Like No. We're optimizing for how do we really drive a change. And to do that, you really need to make it sexy, and there's a lot to be said for like, this is just compounding brand, brand, brand. Like, there's enough marketplace at that point. And, actually, if we just put shepherd's huts in random people's cabins, like, it doesn't you don't build the same brand equity. And, like, that's always been the play. It's just compounding brand equity. So you want people to feel like when they're staying in an unplugged cabin or when they're staying in accommodation they booked through unplugged, it's an unplugged cab cabin? We want we want this to become culturally significant. So being unplugged is switching off, what Uber brings is to getting around. And to do that, it needs to be you know, we need we need people talking about this the whole time. We need to be aspirational. We need to be bold. We need to wow, basically. And just having other marketplace isn't gonna do that. So that has always been the big priority.

And, you know, we've made decisions. Like, we made the high friction decision of having longer nights. We've also made the decision of a, yeah, a business that has lots of troubles to get funded because not EIS, not VC play. It's too start up for the property people who don't own the land. And starting with zero interest rate environments, interest rates went up to 5% in the first two years.

So, again, with that, it it was just so many things to figure out. We ended up raising, from a lot of angels. We got probably 70 angels on the cap table. Just meant it was more time consuming, but, actually, that can be a good thing because it means you have to try harder because they're not just throwing money away as a as a tax write-off. So it just means you have to dig deeper. You have to do more. We then when everything when interest rates went up, the asset financing we had lined up fell through, so we created a financial product called a cabin back loan where, basically, individuals could finance cabins, and that worked really well. So that got us through two or three years.

SM: Wait. What? So you're saying about every year changing your perspective on the biz this literally is going from, like, a bank, like, a property business to a bank to a marketing company. What's this financial product?

HH: Yeah. Well, that's the thing. It's like, I've been talking about the brand and the mission. Like, that is a huge part of my job, a huge part of what we're trying to do as a company. That's the secret sauce. But on the back end, you know, it's a very complicated, you know, balance sheet. You've got all the landowner relationships, the managing hospitality business. So figuring that piece out has been a lot of fun. I'm a numbers guy by background, so I love the intellectual stimulation of of figuring out that game and just learning how to think about, like, debt and equity from first principles because you you just get you just get, conflicting advice from anyone you talk to in the early days. Like, that's bad. That's good.

Really understanding, what is good, what kind of capital we should be getting, how we should be funding this, should we be asset light or asset heavy?

And so just figuring that out for myself and and trying things and understanding mechanics, has been has been a joy. I love it.

SM: Wow. I can tell. I love that. You mentioned before that, like, the fundraisers been a journey. I read that one of the early mistakes that you made I mean, you're saying about being a numbers guy and in the finances. One of the early mistakes was having a a DJ and music line on your on your balance sheet.

What was that about?

HH: Yes. I may be a numbers guy, but I'm not I'm not a details guy. One of our advisers basically sent me a template for, a financial model, and I just didn't really check it. It's the one he copied it over from said, like, DJ and music as one of the line items. And, I was I pitched an angel syndicate and, got through to the due diligence with them. The first question was, what's who tells us about this line item?

SM: Well, good it was the first question. Got that out of the way. That's hilarious. I love it.

HH: So lots of lessons there along the way. And, yeah, we just it's, you know, it's a very capital intense business. So we've just spent lots of time fundraising over the last four years in various capacities.

SM: Any pearls of wisdom you can impart with our listeners on the fundraising given how deep you've been in that? Look out for DJ music.

HH: Yeah. What what I could do but what I could have done much better and and learning to do now is just really doing a proper job and being diligent and working with experts.

So, for example, we just started recently this year working with a fractional CFO, which has been life changing. Because that whole I just do have this slightly lazy side to me. So if you give me a piece of work to do, I probably won't do a good job. But I am very good at working with other people. Helping them do a good job. And so I was just trying to do it and not getting across the financial storytelling and all that kind of stuff. So just ended up, you know, raising lots of small checks, and it's super time-consuming. So I would say, you know, just do a proper job. Really go intense with fundraising because, again, I just did too much casual fundraising over a long time. And, but but then another big learning is you can there's always a way. Like, we had so many cash crunches and high spots, and, like, there's always you can always find money.

SM: What I wanna link that to is because you've been just saying that about the cash crunch kinda gives me a bit of a bellyache. You show up so calm, so positive. You emanate zen, so I definitely wanna talk about, you know, your your great leadership style as well. But we sort of feel about how you manage that. I know that you meditate regularly. Do those moments not kinda make you sick when you've got, like, the cash crunch, when you're like, my business could I could shut this down next week?

What are some moments that really sort of, like, put you under pressure?

HH: So it's definitely when you're in a tight cast cash spot, it is a kind of oppressive weight. But personality wise, again, I've I've always had a, you know, a, calm demeanor and this a suppression of emotions. I think I've done some therapy on this this year. So if you want the unhealthy version of it. And so and the other thing is we we spoke about prioritization, but I think I've always been acutely aware that when you're in a cash a tight cash bar. That is the time that you need to be at your calmest. So in, the art of war, talks about how the kind of perfect general is completely serene, and I've always tried to model that. So when we've been in the tighter spots, my biggest focus has just been to emanate calm Because business is a confidence game, and you need to go and get that money over the line. And if you're looking panicked and the team sees it and they start to get panicked and performance slips All our cards are gonna come. Investors get a red light. So easier said than done.

SM: I know that you meditate regularly. Is there anything else that you do to help maintain that tranquility, that serenity when you're under pressure?

HH: I think spending time offline reading. With our own brand. It works. Reading I think reading about history and just, like, really understanding, what humans have gone through and what it takes to achieve impossible things or very difficult things. So once you just have that backlog of case studies from history and you see just how much goes wrong when you're trying to achieve something, like reading about the second World War, there's a wonderful book.

I think it's the first World War actually, called the guns of August, which is about the first month in the first World War. And Germany so nearly took Paris, which would have effectively ended the war. And the amount that went wrong on both sides. Through the whole month was just it was basically just a a comedy of errors. And I think understanding that, it it it definitely translates to companies. And it's understanding that, like, stuff goes wrong the whole time, and that's not a problem, and you can still survive and succeed and all and and often that's what success looks like. Often success is just a string of failures that are vaguely in the right direction. So I think there's a freestyle.

SM: "Often success is a string of failures vaguely in the right direction!" That's fantastic!

HH: And I think it's on. I mentioned reading because the more you understand that the less stress there is in the situation.

SM: While I'm listening to you, look, I don't know about my listeners.

So, like, leave us a comment. Please let us know. Like, is this resonating? Like because for me, when I've been in stressful situations, I hear you say, go offline, read a book, all the rest of it. I'm, like, physically, mentally, all the rest of it incapable, which obviously says that I need to be spending more time offline, and I'm practicing meditation more often. So there's an element of kind of easier said than done in the moment, but I think there's a there's a really big argument to, like, that that habit-building and getting those fundamentals over, like, this longer period of time. You're not suddenly gonna go from, like, one minute to the next. Oh, okay, Hector. I'm gonna go and read a book, you know, and calm down. So, but at the very, very least, I'm hoping that at least listening to you and some of your serene vibes through this podcast are getting people kind of in the right headspace for it. You touched on, obviously, like, loads of lessons learned.

One of the other things, that I read on the other mistakes: you mentioned bringing in a a fractional CFO, which is chief financial officer for anyone unaware - one of the mistakes I heard you, say was about kind of bringing in external experts or external consultants and maybe a bit of an expectation that they'd come and bring and wave the magic wand.

Are you happy to share that? What happened, and what's the lesson learned from that?

HH: Yeah, for sure. So I massively changed my mind on that. I've massively changed my mind on a lot of most things this year.

SM: What are some of the top things you've massively changed your mind on?

HH: The value of paid media.

SM: Oh my god. You're gonna get me so excited. This is top one for me.

HH: Balance. I changed my mind that I should have more balance in my life, and I've changed my mind to have less balance in my life recently.

And I think I think one bigger one is this whole consultants where we just had some, you know, not great experiences early on. And, actually, I think that is says something to us in how we approach the situation. I think we can go in with strong enough briefs. We you know, you get what you put into it, and then who you work with is massive. So there were good people we worked with that we didn't set up for success. There were other people who weren't the right people. So, like, everything, working with the right consultant agencies, whatever, is worth the weight in gold. But in the last year or so, we've just I've just really realised the value of just working with deep experts and doing it right, you know, setting the right intentions, having a good relationship with them. And we brought in two or three in the last year that have just been completely transformed. So we we now have we actually we have a very small core team and, work with a few just very, very strong consultant agencies around that that that really massively multiply everything we do.

SM: Amazing. That's music to my ears.

HH: It's a process. Right? You gotta learn how to set people up for success.

SM: I love how you phrase that. I'm a big believer in that as well.

Why have you changed your mind on paid media? We're excited to hear about that.

HH: Well, I think I was always just very, sceptical, arrogant, or whatever you wanna call it. You always see these posts like, we canceled all of our paid media budget and doubled down on brand and, yeah, and now our sales have gone up. And I think it's always been organic brand. Like, that's our strength, basically. So I think marketing is an art and a science, and we've always over indexed on the art. And supply's always been the biggest constraints. We've always had really high occupancies and haven't needed to worry about paid. And I think I just had this attitude that, like, that would continue forever, and we never need to spend any money in marketing because our products are so great, and, you know, we're so great at talking about it that people are just gonna keep ripping it out of our hands. And then really started to scale supply in the last year or so. And, actually, we weren't doing any more on marketing. We weren't spending any more of this kind of stuff. The occupancy started to drop. And spoke to, again, some great people I know who who are really deep domain experts, around scaling the marketing side of things. What I realized I'd been what what I now think I was wrong on is, you know, it's great having the good organic, but, actually, that just means you can acquire customers cheaper on paid. But, you know, paid is how you amplify that. Paid is, you know, paid is what really helps drive the revenue. So, yeah, I think it was just, an arrogance, of, like, we never need to be paid and understanding that actually and I think before we we any paid spend had been very siloed. So it hadn't been used to amplify organic. You know, the two weren't talking to each other. And working with someone incredible on that side of things now and just completely opened my eyes to just how the two can work in harmony. And, actually, the amazing success on organic just just sets us up so well.

SM: I was expecting you to say the opposite, actually, because I feel like most of the time, paid media, given its low barrier to entry, it the low kind of friction, it's more often than not that's how startups do kind of get things going and then realize that actually, like, it's easy to just kind of waste money. It can be a sinkhole. You can kinda that performance can plateau. So I'm surprised to hear it was that way around.

HH: That's the thing. I mean, paid media is not equal to all. And yeah especially, you know, Mark Zuckerberg is talking now about you just plug in a product and they will create the ads. They'll, you know, do the With the AI thing. So then all that you're left with is positioning. Right? And so I think having a unique positioning actually just means that paid is more effective for you.

Like, I think there are so many companies out there that raise so much VC capital, and the unit economics just don't work. Like, they just can't acquire customers at the growth rate they need to cheap enough to actually make any money. So there are so many household names that you know, I've heard about or, yeah, people have told me about, that we're just losing money on every order. And so far away from this is before you even take the team in, this kind of thing. And, again, you just get this and there can be success stories. Like, Deliveroo lost money on every order for years and years and years. And then the bet was always that if they could become the scale player. Then that changes. It changed. They sold for, you know, 2 or 3,000,000,000 recently.

SM: But timing is such a huge factor in that. I know that so preaching to the choir, you know this better than most other people, but I feel like that era is gone now. I feel like the Deliveroos, the Ubers, the Airbnbs, like these huge tech unicorns, there was a huge element of right time, right place because of so many different, like, tailwinds.

HH: But there are different areas right now. Like the founders who are doing that are now building the latest AI company. It depends what your goal is. Because if your goal is to get a billion dollar exit then that's a 100% the right strategy. But my goal is to make this particular change in the world. And so I need this to work. So it's all about how do we make this succeed.

Whereas, you know, someone could churn through an AI company now, raise hundreds of millions. And if it doesn't work, then they're just gonna start another company in three years. And they they'll keep churning that. They'll keep learning each time, and they'll make it a huge success. And they'll get the payout they want. The payout doesn't interest me at all. It's very easy to say that as a founder, but it really doesn't.

You know, I wanna get a good result for investors, blah blah blah, and teammates. But, yeah, that's just a scorecard. I think for me, what's really, really important is that we can build a huge company here so that we can make this change in the world.

SM: And on that note, you've very recent congratulations. You made it to what was it? The top 100 wealthy list, but, like, the different type of wealth?

HH: It was just it was called the yeah. It was the Sunday Times runner alternative rich list.

SM: The alternative rich list.

HH: They had they just had, I don't know, fifteen, twenty, companies or entrepreneurs that were doing something good. I think it was more of a it's it's less quantifiable than the richest. So it was more of a they were just looking for the, like, companies out there. They came across us so it's nice validation.

I mean, all of these things, you can get you can get sick of it. I like it to be and I think it just confirms that, like, there really is something here. This change needs to happen in the world. And, you know, we're gonna keep doubling down on that.

SM: Incredible. I love that.

Hector, I feel like you are a walking advert for Unplugged. I feel like you really are. I mean, like, every founder should be the poster boy or girl for the business and and the brand that they're building, but with you, it's 100% true.

Any other, like, funny stories, like, good lessons that came out of some, like, funny anecdotes in the journey? I just wanna make sure we don't leave any stone unturned.

HH: Well, I mean, we've had there have been many bumps along the way. Like, it's it's never as straightforward as it looks on LinkedIn. I think, personally, I I had a really, challenging, like, two or three years up until really start of this year. So when I started the business, I was in such a good place mentally. I, gave up drinking, drug taking, all of that. But four years, completely sober. And then shortly after starting, I started to get these weird health issues. Sorry. This isn't a funny anecdote, Bob. Excellent. So I get this, like, burning rash. It depends a bit of this kind of redness and keep it up during the night, last for seventy two hours. That went on for a couple of years.

SM: This is is this after giving up?

HH: Yeah. This is four months after giving up drinking. Interesting. And, I you know, antihistamines would keep it away, but every time I stopped, it would come back. And then I started to feel, like, rough and hungover every day, and that went on for two, two and a half years. And I basically found out last year it was due to mould poisoning from household mould.

So I just had I just had a couple of years, the last two really, where I was I just felt like I was fighting fires on on every front. I had, you know, feeling profoundly rough every day, relationships, crumbling, romantic relationships, cash crunches.

And it was literally just I just had to and I as I said, my my priority each day was was turning up and just being, like, a a calm, positive influence.

So every day, I just had to grit my teeth and just turn up and and try and exude calm and and good vibes. And I just really felt like I was surviving, not not thriving.

Then this year, I really feel like I've got my mojo back, and I was feeling feeling pumped. So excited for the future.

SM: I love it and perfect timing to come and show off on a podcast and talk about your journey.

But I love how you mentioned there have been many bumps in the road. Of course, there have, and that is the whole purpose of this show.

And it was born from that place of, like, the LinkedIn humble bragging, the sifted press coverage, like, everyone announcing their headlines, and you're like you know, I was in a very privileged position where I was at the epicenter with my last marketing agency working with all these incredible clients like yourself, right, and these entrepreneurs and leaders and seeing, like, how far the the the reality was, you know, from from what everything was going on online. Again, it goes back to that difference between online, offline.

I have one penultimate question to ask you before we get on to my traditional closing question, unless you do remember any funny anecdotes that you wanna share.

Why do you not believe in deadlines?

HH: That's a good question. I'm just trying to think if I if I still think that's the case. Do I believe in deadlines? Well, I remember writing a long time ago that I didn't believe in deadlines. I think I probably changed my mind a bit on that. Like, it's they're useful. Before, I never hit deadlines anyway. Like, why are we doing this? It's a waste of time. No one cares. Let's just do it when we can. But, actually, I think I think there is you know, there's a lot to be said for I I one of the things I'm learning to be is less agreeable.

SM: Recovering people pleaser.

HH: A 100%. A weakness and a strength as a leader is I'm highly agreeable. I think it means that you kind of coast through all of the people relationships. I have great relationships with everyone I work with. But it it just means that, you know, there are things that you're not firm enough on, you get walked over on, all these kind of things. So I think I think one of the things I'm learning as I develop in my role is to just be more unreasonable at times, push more, say things that are uncomfortable every now and again.

SM: Was there some catalyst that helped you kind of switch on that?

HH: Yeah. It was some therapy at the start of the year. I wasn't in a great place last year. And at the end of last year, I just had this, like I I just had a real, like, wait and started some therapy with a a chap called Gavin. He's a a very amazing character. And just just had to face up some very big things in my life. And this year, I've just been facing as many uncomfortable things as possible and just just getting through them. And so much of what you want in life is on the other side of an uncomfortable conversation. And so, yeah, this year has really been about about going through that, and the weight has just has just fallen off.

SM: And how do you do that? Again, any sort of, like, practical tips that you can give on, you know, easier said than done? Like, do you grit your teeth and go through it? Or what or is it, like, having that really clear idea of the motivation behind it?

HH: It's that. I think the more you can talk about it. So let's say there's something let's let's talk about our romantic relationship because it's a an easy one, where if you're in a relationship, which a lot of people are, where you you know deep down that this isn't right and you need to end it, that is such a horrible thing to face up to That, like, you can't even you can't even think about it. Because you can't imagine yourself by actually breaking up with that person, this person who, you know, your whole life is around, you know, trying to be there for and make happy and all these things.

00:40:52 [Speaker 2]

And I think just take the first step, which is vocalize that to a therapist.

00:40:57 [Speaker 2]

So I think in for example, when I was seeing this therapist, he he's I still see to him.

00:41:01 [Speaker 2]

He is deeply challenging, which is what I need, I think, because I always skirted around being too challenged in my life.

00:41:07 [Speaker 2]

There'll be something where I feel I don't wanna say this to him because I know that once I say it to him, it's out there, and then he's gonna talk me into doing it in the next few weeks or or talk with me on it, and then eventually, we'll end up having to do it.

00:41:21 [Speaker 2]

And I think it's just taking I don't need to end the relationship now, but I I just need to take the little brave step to say it out loud, you know, and not worry about that.

00:41:30 [Speaker 2]

And so just it's just learning to lean into discomfort.

00:41:33 [Speaker 2]

Yeah.

00:41:33 [Speaker 2]

As I've started doing recently, I've kind of done it on and off over the years, Wim Hof breathing, which is fifteen minutes in the morning.

00:41:40 [Speaker 2]

And that that is very uncomfortable when you're holding a breath for two minutes.

00:41:43 [Speaker 2]

It's very uncomfortable. And I think I'm just learning through that and through therapy. I've just, like, the more you lean into discomfort and the more you, like, take the brave little step, I think courage is the I don't think courage is, you know, me raising those debt and taking all the risk of being a founder because that's not stuff that scares me. Any other relationship is courage for me because I have real people pleaser, and it's horrible. I feel sick to myself when I have to do it. So it's just learning to be courageous. Like, courage is courage is every part of your body telling you that they doesn't wanna do something and then and then doing it anyway. And so I think it's it's just learning to lean into that.

SM: Yeah, makes sense. And these things, you know, it's what's that phrase? Like, the fear is is almost, like, worse than the thing itself. Is it like, I think you do make things worse. You know, in the build up and the analog the overthinking and everything, and it's like, picking up the phone and making that making that cool that you're just like you know, your heart is your heart rate's up through the roof. You swear you but it's like either like, I honest I don't think, like, it never is as bad as you think. Like, I was just trying to think for a sec there. Like, I don't think anything's ever turned out as bad as I thought it could have been in my own head. I mean, you're obviously in a rational optimist, so you'll think obviously you would say that.

Did we close the loop on the deadline thing just to give our our listeners

HH: I'm now thinking that actually having some tight deadlines is good. Whether or not the deadlines get hit, like, it does just move things forward.

SM: I think it's just when you have a team. Right? I think maybe before I'd hazard that, like, maybe it was more a personal thing of just, like, this deadline isn't gonna get hit. But maybe for a team, you sort of need to rally the troops.

HH: Yeah. And I think at that point, maybe I, like, had a team but wasn't doing a good job of leading them. And so I I do think there's a lot to be said for deadlines now, so I changed my mind again.

SM: Cool. And you're allowed to.

HH: Well, I think it's encouraged. I I think so so many people run into problems because they have these very dogmatic views on this. I think it's super important to change your mind on everything. I'm reading a book at the moment called The Reason for God, and I'm not religious. But it's like, I think it's good to doubt your doubts.

SM: Hector, thank you so much for saying that. I really, really love that you say that, and it really does connect to the whole online offline because the more time that we spend online as well, you obviously know much more about this than I do, but I feel like that conditions us even more so into this black and white thinking into you know, especially in the era of, like, personal brand and, like, profile building and, you know, being known for a thing, taking a stance on something. And, and you say, you know, I say it's allowed. You say it's encouraged. I think the vast majority of people would would disagree with us on that.

HH: 100%.

SM: At least if you look at their actions on social media, they're like, oh, wait. You said this. You sound and I I think it's I think it's understandable because it's the people, please. Because people need to know. Like, if you don't stand for something, you fall for everything. So I think there is this for people who don't really, really know you deeply, I think there is that, like, that doubt that it creates in people's mind of, like it goes down to trust. It's like, can I trust you? And I think if you change your mind on something, it's like, wait. But you said this yesterday. What are you gonna say tomorrow? And I think in leadership as well with teams, I guess that's different because you you haven't changed your mind on the mission and the little star with Unplugged. So that is where there is that nuance.

But I saw something the other day that really stuck with me, which was, like, what's one thing that, like, looks stupid but actually isn't? And the answer is finding out new information and changing your mind based on that. So I love that. I just wanted to give that a bit more airtime.

Hector, unless you thought of a funny story that you wanna share, because I just have a feeling that you've got a few then the final traditional closing question on this show, is one particular tragedy that's taught you an unforgettable lesson?

HH: Well, I'll tell you, it's a bit of a ridiculous story, but the story I thought of was, was was a bit of a tragedy at the time.

SM: Perfect.

HH: We we basically completely messed up the first cabin in many ways. It was running out of solar power in July. Like, we just we just got so many things wrong. And so we had to swap out we basically had too much in the cabin that consumes energy, and so overloaded the solar system. So we had to swap out a lot of the stuff in there. And one of the things was a wood stove. So we had this very complicated pellet burner that was electric start. We just swapped it out for a good old wood stove, which is what we we use now. So we ordered this thing. Ben and I lugged it up to the cabin. Obviously, it was a wrought iron wood stove, so so very heavy.

We got there, and there was a guest checking there were two guests checking in the next day. So we're like, we'll just get it sorted today, and then, yeah, it's all grown. We actually had to go pick them up from the the train station the next day, so we had to come back up anyway. And got it out, and the chimney was twice the size of the hole we had in the roof because they they just had different flutes. So with, oh my god, what are we gonna do about this?

And Ben and I were still on handy at all. So it was, We're just gonna have to we're gonna have to cut a hold on the roof. And it was it was getting late at this point. Let's go back down to London, and tomorrow we'll come up Just get us a car tomorrow. Wake up at five. Come up early. Just get it done.

Call my mate who's, you know, in construction, and I was like, look. What tools do we need? Went to Screwfix on the way. So we arrived at seven in the morning with all our tools ready to go. The guests arrived at three, so we had loads of time. And, it started cutting through, and it was it was wood at first, and then you start to cut through insulation. And then finally got to the top, and there was just this metal plate. And so we got on the roof and found that they'd welded a metal plate around that, and, obviously, not a lot of tools could do that. Now to get back to Screwfix, buy this massive metal saw

So I was then up on the roof with this fucking metal saw trying to hack a hole in it to so that we could get the the flu through. Made a complete mess of that. Complete health and safety hazard. Putting a hole in it.

In the process, I put a Stanley knife into my finger.

I'm really squeamish as well.

That was horrible.

I had to had to wrap it up with this, like, bloody rag, basically, and also had to have this waterproof paint.

So once we'd finally got the thing through, had to paint the, you know, the the collar back down. Finally got it done. I was the one driving because it was one of these these higher cars.

So I had to go pick up the guest. I had this bloody rag around my finger covered in black paint, picked them up from the train station, dropped them off. And, anyway, they ended up having a a wonderful stay. But the worst the worst part of the whole day for me was I had to go to A and E to stop the breathing in the evening. I'm so squeamish. And the worst part of the whole day was in A and E. I couldn't even talk about it. The woman the woman sat next to me had cut off her finger, and she just wouldn't stop talking about it. I sort of passed out listening to her. So, anyway, I got I got my finger glued up, and it was all fine.

SM: And for anyone not watching this on video, just listen to the audio. Like, Hector is just squirming so much in his season, like, making every facial expression.

Do you go like horror movies?

HH: No!

The lesson there was just, like, there's always a way through. There were so many points that day. Like, oh my god. What are we gonna do? And, again, it's when we when you look back, it's, that's the other thing. It's, like, none of these things matter as much as they feel at the time. It felt existential to the whole business what would happen there when you're in the moment.

Fundamentally, worst case scenario, we would have just had to cancel one guest stay and then got a professional in to sort it out. And so, yeah, there's an interesting there is just a interesting magnitude that when you zoom out, it's like, what are we gonna think about this in three years, four years, five years? So it always feels so important in the moment, but it never is.

SM: Hector, your energy is so fantastic. I feel like I need more Hector energy in my life because, never had a story like that on the traditional closing question.

Often there are themes, and a lot of them do go back to, like, self care and founder burnout. That's a really common one.

So not heard that. I love that there's kind of a funny story in the mix, but ultimately, it's that power of perspective. Zooming back out. Is this gonna matter in a few years' time? You can get through it. One way or another, like, you get through it, and exact and it's actually your point. It's kind of like, what's the worst that can happen?

I like asking myself that question as well, like, not to induce any unnecessary anxiety, but just like, wait. It's kind of like what you're saying before about, like, leaning into that discomfort of, like, okay. What act what actually is the worst? Because, again, it's that fear of the thing that is the worst thing. And so to your point, it's like, well, I would have had to cancel. I would have had to grovel, make it back to them somehow, and you live to tell the tale.

Hey, thank you so much for coming on Strategy and Tragedy. We've covered mold infections, therapy, breakups, all the stuff that I wasn't expecting. It's okay. On an entrepreneurship show, but lots of all the good business stuff as well. So really appreciate it. Thank you so much.

Please  hit that subscribe button if you haven't already. Thank you so much for listening. Thank you for joining. Really hope you've enjoyed this, and hopefully, see you time.

Episodes are weekly, so make sure to tune in next time, and hopefully see you there.

Strategy & Tragedy: CEO Stories with Steph Melodia is the best podcast for curious entrepreneurs and ambitious founders. Learn from those a few steps ahead of you in these candid interviews of the highs and lows of scaling and failing business.

Watch the full episode here, subscribe on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Amazon Music.

Thank you for listening and for supporting the show!