The Psychology of Motivation with Claudia Gasson, Bailey & French

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In this week's episode, Stephanie Melodia interviews Claudia Gasson, a Business Psychologist & Talent Strategist at the psychology-backed culture consultancy, Bailey & French. She is also a seasoned recruiter and former founder, with her own talent consultancy, Ortus.

In this interview, host Stephanie Melodia and Claudia cover:

• Insights from 10+ years in recruitment (including the top reason people leave their jobs)

• The psychology of motivation and how to attract top talent

• Practical tips on how employers can increase engagement & reduce burnout

• How to create a culture of success

• Claudia's own entrepreneurial story (and why running your own business isn't ALL it's cracked up to be... )

Watch on YouTube via the link below or keep reading for the transcript:

SM: Claudia, as a former recruiter, what's one unique insight you can share with our listeners from speaking to thousands of job leavers?

CG: Well, I think, fundamentally, everyone kinda leaves their job for the same reason, which is they don't get on with their boss. But also there's a lot around salary and pay. You know? There's a lot of motivations around that, but also around opportunities for progression as well.

I think, honestly, they're the key fundamental things. But when you speak to an external recruiter, you also don't want to share that you're, like, not happy with your boss. So it doesn't always come up, but you know what? That actually through a lot of research, that is fundamentally one of the key reasons. So, yeah, it's all about just making sure that people you get on better with your boss.

You have good paid transparency, and you just gotta keep people happy at the end of the day. Okay. Amazing. Love that. So you are subject matter expert in the world of recruitment.

You had your own business. So definitely wanna talk to you about that as a b to b service provider similar to my business. We've got really similar stories with that as well, so I'm really excited to dive in. And since then, you've now decided to start studying organizational psychology doing a master's at Birkbeck, which is amazing. So I'd love to ask you on that note.

What's some fascinating insights you can share from the masters you're currently doing? Well, there's so much that we cover, down to, like, selection assessment. So, like, making sure that you create really robust validated selection processes when it comes to recruitment, as an example, down to things like leadership development, so understanding what makes a really good leader. There's so much that goes into that, around change management are really like, lots of things around that, but I think, probably one of the most fascinating things is, like, for me, learning about performance motivation. So and really understanding what makes people thrive at work and what makes people tick, but there's so much within that to uncover Yeah.

That I guess to point pinpoint, like, one particular thing, I think, yeah, getting into the nitty gritty of that has been fascinating. I I appreciate there's a lot here. So apologies if, like, the questions aren't, like, specific enough, but I would love as as someone who is on the outside and and doesn't study organizational psychology and everything. What is I guess, what's something that you've recently learned that's really kind of made you go, like, oh, wow, like, made the penny drop and really sort of, like, got you excited? I think from, like, learning about motivation theories as an example Yeah.

Probably one key thing. So, you know, what really makes people, like, thrive at work? I mean, it's been really motivating to work. I think we can draw upon, like, one particular theory that I can come to mind. So, it's all around self determination theory, and that's all around understanding, what you need in order to be perform better at work.

So it comes down to having autonomy. So, for example, having control over your work. The second thing is around competence. So, you know, making sure that you actually feel like you're capable of doing that of doing your job. And then the third thing is around relatedness, so around making sure that you're actually connected to people at work.

So I think that really comes into play. And I think, you know, we spoke about this before. Working remotely really taps into that relating this piece because if you're not around people, then it's really hard to know what's going on. You've got no feedback loops coming through. And so it's really, like, easily understandable to see why you get such high churn in remote jobs.

Mhmm. And, you know, why people really suffer from mental health in that respect as well. So I think I I really learned a lot from that from my own experience working and running a remote business and then also reducing down my team headcount as well. So that was an interesting Alright. So touching on, like, the remote, the hybrid, the in office, obviously, that's still, like, this whole kind of push and pull today, five years on from the pandemic.

Where do you stand on that then? Which team are you on? Well, interestingly enough, at Bailey and French, where I work at the moment, we have a fully in office policy, which is a little bit like taboo, but, actually, I have found it amazing because having worked remotely, I really missed the connection of people, the relationships that you build. It's just so much more interesting to learn about other people and, like, just build those friendships, And you just become so much more cohesive as a team, works so much better as a team. Are there any specific benefits that you've enjoyed going back into a a real world and in office environment having been remote for so long?

Honestly, I think my mental health has improved significantly. Honestly. I think having I'm I'm quite an extrovert anyway. So being close to people and building those relationships at work has always been quite a fundamental part of, like, why I enjoy jobs. Mhmm.

You know, being a recruiter, you're quite social. You know? And, also, I study people at work. So I think, it's just really, really interesting to, yeah, that that's the experience that I've had because I was slightly dubious about going in full time. You know?

A lot of people, like, say that hybrid is the best option nowadays because it gives a little bit more flexibility. And I think it also does for, like, working moms as well, as an example, and or working fathers who need to collect children from school, and it just gives that a little bit more flexibility. So there's a whole debate we could have around that, but I'm not sure if Yeah. I think it's not here for that necessarily. Exactly.

But, no, really interested to hear your perspective and in particular how much that's helped you mental like, mentally with your mental health, which is amazing. I wanna just connect back what you're talking about here around, your enjoyment of being back in the office, the what was it called? The self determination theory of, like, feeling connected, related, and capable. Yeah. All this great stuff.

I wanna just kinda connect that back to the opening answer around common reasons for people leaving their jobs. So not getting along with your boss, but pay was something else that you mentioned here as well. Yeah. So how do you reconcile like, how important is the pay factor in the mix here? Because So there's also another theory.

Mhmm. Tell me. I could draw. Love it. I mean, class, taking notes.

It's all around making sure that you have the support, you know, the fundamental support, I. E, the pay, like feedback support around that, and making sure that you have the resources to be able to do your job. So pay really comes into that. That resource bucket. Exactly.

So you need that to have you know, you can't do a job if you can't feed yourself, if you don't have a good place to live. So the fundamental human needs really come into making sure that people on a fundamental level can actually then thrive at work. Because without that, how are you gonna you're just gonna be worrying, constantly stressed about how to survive. So And that argument is, like, easy to understand, but I feel like it's one of those things which is, like, easier said than done. And especially for, know, us too as well.

We've been on both sides of the fence. We've both been business owners. We've both been employees. Mhmm. So doing that as an employer isn't as straightforward.

How can employers overcome that tension point between making sure their employees are connected, they're well paid, etcetera, etcetera, but also they've gotta look at their profit margins, the bottom line, their OPEX, etcetera, etcetera. Well, I think it's they're constant struggle. Yeah. You know? I think there's also new legislation coming out in the EU around, pay transparency.

So from you know? Well, that will immediately means that there's a lot more, things on the table. And I think it will be a real benefit for things like equity in, you know, pay and everything like that. So I think that that will really support with, well, employees, but it'll be difficult for employers. And I think you'll see a lot of churn.

Mhmm. So, I mean, it's just a constant. I'm trying to think of solution for them, but, ultimately, it's gonna be around, like, having good communication, and making sure that they can cover their costs. And I think that in itself will cause a wave of change within organization Yeah. For the good for for employees, but for, yeah, for employers, I mean, they just gotta step up and make sure they're paying everyone fairly.

What can you say to the, you know, these companies that aren't paying their employees enough, but then in the same breath are reporting, like, record breaking profits, and especially if they have got external investors to answer to and especially that kind of outsized return VC model that can be, you know, that aggressive growth at all cost. What's your kinda take on that? I mean, they should just pay better. I mean, like, honestly, it just makes me Are you anti VC then? I wonder.

Not necessarily. I think that there is a place for VC 100%, but and I worked fundamentally, well, with VC backed companies, so I understand the struggles and the the waves of funding that everyone goes through and things like that. And I understand the pressures that that comes with with being a founder, but, you know, my business wasn't VC backed. But, ultimately, I think it's, yeah, it's just gonna be I don't know. I I think at the end of the day, also, it's all for talent.

You know? If you can if you're one of the best people, you gotta pay for the best people, and it is just, you know, one of the old oldest tricks in the books that you really do need to pay people appropriately. And that's just my stand on it. What do you think gets in the way of that for some employers? Obviously, budget, but, I also think that people don't understand the value of the ROI of employees.

You know? Like, you could get a really excellent employee if you just pay them a little bit more than someone, you you know, who's a bit subpar, but then the amount of ROI that you could get on that individual could be astronomical. You know? They could open up a door. Like, let's say an example of a salesperson, like an enterprise sales, rep, let's say, you get someone who can open up a door into, like, a $3,000,000,000, account.

Happy days. Right? You know? Paid for itself. A 100%.

And and you're paying them probably a 120 k base plus double OTA. Well, if they exceed their targets more, like, you know, your profit margin on that is amazing. So I can imagine there's still a fear factor potentially for some employers when, like, that isn't a guarantee, when it is kind of like, okay. Like, they say they are well connected, and they've got a little black book again in the sales function, but it's still a gamble, isn't it? So is that kind of is that a drawback for some employers?

I think this is a constant thing that I'd always come up against. And it comes down to a robust recruitment process, I think, at the end of the day. Making sure that you have someone who is proven is always gonna help. Sorry, graduates out there. But, so, yeah, making sure that you have, a structured interview process, making sure that you have competency based interviews where you can draw upon past experiences.

As opposed to, like, promises Exactly. That may or may not be met. Exactly. You wanna hire people who are proven rather than that they're not. That makes sense.

So And you as a bootstrapped founder, were you would did you ever have any struggles with hiring talent yourself, with not being able to afford that quality that you wanted, and how did you overcome some of those challenges? That is a great question. I I think, to be honest, I was really like, I did speak my truth in terms of, you know, paying people appropriately. I wanted to pay even though I couldn't necessarily afford it. I knew that if I had a really good person, then they would pay for themselves, you know, in dip in miles.

And so, therefore, yes, I did, hire people slightly above market rate, and I had a very competitive commission structure as well. Nice. And that was to make sure that I got the best talent and that they stayed, ultimately. And it still worked for you too, so it's a win win Yeah. Setup.

And it was great. I think, yes, you always get some people who don't necessarily perform as well, but they were probably the those hires that I made, they're a little bit junior. So it is harder to assess, based on that experience. But I actually it came down to where I maybe made missed hires. It came down to making sure that I had someone in a seat doing the job, and I sacrificed probably on quality.

And I probably should have waited a little bit longer to find the right person. That whole higher slow, fire fast Yeah. Mentality. Right? It's so true.

But it's just that, again, one of those other, like, truisms that's so much easier said than done when you're in the situation. Right? And you're just like, I could really do with another pair of hands, but actually holding on and waiting out for the better fit is is much better in the long run. What else can employers do to attract top quality talent beyond simply the salary offer? That is a great question.

I think perks, like, you know, everyone laughs about, like, fruit. Bean bags. Yeah. Bean bags. Like Bancon tables.

That's like, you know, that really doesn't actually make, that much of an impact. Ultimately, what you really need is opportunities for progression. So, you know, having lots of training development, leadership development programs, things like that, making sure that there's good flexible working practices, enabling people to thrive at work just fundamentally, like making sure people have good well-being. And that is honestly, I think, just fundamentally what it comes down to. How can leaders model a behavior that cultivates that kind of workplace culture that's needed to give employees that sense of, like, security and know that well-being is a priority?

I think instilling a culture of psychological safety. So, like, making sure that people can feel comfortable enough to communicate how they feel Mhmm. Is really, really important. Mhmm. So making sure that people are understand understand, you know, what people's values are as well.

So for example, if someone needs to take time off to go and take care of a family member or something like that, that that's not gonna get penalized against them to make sure that they feel safe enough to do that and that the rest of the team will cover them. So it's all about, like, making sure that you work in, you know, in a nice flow together. You understand each other. And, you know, at Bailey and French, we do whole, like we have whole programs around designing this to make sure that people feel psychologically safe to be able to thrive at work and they can come to work, be authentic, with with boundaries, obviously. Yeah.

But then also making sure that they have that connectedness to feel that they can make mistakes, you know, work and and those kind of things to enable people to then have control and autonomy throughout. What happens when that goes too far? So, like, that all sounds amazing and lovely. And people who have got their heart in the right place and, like, got good intentions, but, unfortunately, not everyone does for whatever reason. So the very rare instances where, okay, fine, someone needs to take time off for something, What happens if they kinda take that too far?

And you kinda mentioning just there as an example, like, the other team members coming into cover, that can sometimes create a strain as well. Right? And a sense of perhaps unfairness with the others. Mhmm. So you kinda laugh when I first started with this question.

Right? So I'm sure you've got some stories. What can you speak to on on that point? Quick one. So sorry to interrupt.

So I'm sure that you are on the edge of your seat listening to this interview, at least I hope so. I'm so so aware of all the other podcasts that are already out there, so the fact that you've decided to tune in and listen to this one is not lost on me. If you can just go that one step further and hit that follow or subscribe button, doesn't cost a thing. It takes two seconds. Now is your chance to do that.

It means so much. Really appreciate your support. Thank you so much. Now let's get back to the interview. What happens when that goes too far?

So, like, that all sounds amazing and lovely, and people who have got their heart in the right place and, like, got good intentions, but, unfortunately, not everyone does for whatever reason. So the very rare instances where, okay, fine, someone needs to take time off for something, what happens if they kinda take that too far? And you kinda mentioning just there as an example, like, the other team members coming in to cover, that can sometimes create a strain as well. Right? And a sense of perhaps unfairness with the others.

Mhmm. So you kinda laugh when I first started with this question. Right? So I'm sure you've got some stories. What can you speak to on on that point?

Well, I think it comes down to probably policies, to be quite frank. Yeah. Making sure that there are really robust policies. And there's a framework so that people know the boundaries that they can work within, to be honest. Just Yeah.

Lit quite quite simply HR policy. And I you know, even when I started my organization, I made sure that I had really explicit policies available on our notion to make sure that everyone knew what the boundaries were. Yeah. And when Goes both ways, doesn't it? Yeah.

100%. And so having them readily available Yeah. Really helps. And, you know, being able to for people to refer to them Yeah. Amazing.

To refer to that. So you mentioned your day job now is at Bailey and French, which sounds amazing. So tell us a little bit more about what Bailey and French is, what you do. I know you've got some incredible clients that you work with, and I'd love to hear about how that kinda connects with your master's degree at the moment as well. Yeah.

So tell us about Bailey and French first. Yeah. Absolutely. So Bailey and French are an organizational psychology consultancy. We're all focused around humanizing the world of work.

So we're focused on, like, positive psychology. So it's really understanding what your strengths are to enable to flourish at work. So, a lot of our work is kind of has that interwoven within it. So we do lots of programs around, like, making sure that, employees are engaged at work. As I said before, leadership development programs, we do team effectiveness.

We do, like, programs around well-being, and, also, we do lots of coaching as well. So Nice. We have, a 130 psychologists work working in over a 150 countries. Wow. And we work with companies like the BBC, Ocado, Allianz, like, Specsavers.

There are so many massive companies that we work within the private sector, but we also work with the public sector as well. So, all of the civil service. So it's incredible. I appreciate you've only been with the business for, I believe, like, under a year. Right?

It hasn't been, like, a huge amount of time, but what crosses my mind is, like, the fluctuation. I can imagine that a business like this has been through given how much the world has changed in recent years. Is like, I definitely believe there is more of a need for this sort of organization and and helping to train leaders to get the best out of their people. Are there any challenges that you guys are coming up against now given the sort of leadership that we've got in place at the moment, I e, the Oval Office? Look.

I think it is definitely a challenge, but I love a challenge. Yeah. It comes down to the actual impact that it has in your organization. So are you having really high attrition? Are you having, like, lots of grievances at work?

All of these things, we mitigate as a proactive response rather than reactively dealing with, you know, lawsuits or whatever. So we are there to buffer all of those issues. And, also, it comes down to a, you know, literally a monetary thing as well. If you have someone who's productive at work, they're gonna be way more cost effective to you, they're gonna bring in far more revenue overall versus, and it's so important on a lean team as well. You want those people to be happy at work rather than stretched.

So it's about making sure that you create the environment that people are unable to thrive. Are there any organizations that, like, don't get it? Yeah. And do you try and, like, educate them, persuade, or you literally just kind of, like, we're dealing with the people who do get it, and we'll see you at the finish line kind of thing? Yeah.

I think we deal with a lot of larger organizations because they do understand the impact, that has on profits, ultimately. So, because of that, we do deal with a lot of large organizations, but we also deal with a lot smaller who really do value that. And I think, it is about educating people. You know, this is an a great platform to be able to demonstrate how we can really help organizations. And, yes, sometimes people do think it's, like, a nice to have.

Yeah. Exactly. But, actually, your people are the blood of your business and your organization. So if they aren't happy and you haven't got the best people working for you, then you're not gonna you're not gonna scale. You're not gonna reach your business objectives.

And I think that's what it comes down to. So, yeah, get Vale and French on board, and we'll oh, that will sort out all your problems. Love that. Love that. How much overlap is there with your masters at the moment?

And I appreciate that that's also still in progress. You're not graduated just yet. But with what you're currently learning, how much of that are you getting to apply in your day job at the moment? Oh, every day. Nice.

I think what's really underpinned what I'm doing at Balian French is that everything we do is so evidence based. Mhmm. So there is you know, we really draw upon the most recent research in order to implement that in the workplaces and the organizations that we work with. Mhmm. And I even said that to my CEO the other day and said, you know, this is we're so on the money and on point with all the latest stuff that, you know, we do have the most innovative products out there to really help people thrive at work.

So it's pretty exciting Yeah. Amazing. I can tell that you are doing so well and really flourishing in what you're doing as well now. What we talked a little bit before about kind of talent attraction. So beyond paying for that quality, but also other ways that you can you can get the best people to join.

How about once they are actually in? You mentioned attrition as well. Can you give any practical tips that leaders can take away to help kind of increase that engagement to make sure that people not only stick around, but, like, are doing their best at work? Yeah. I think it kinda touches a little bit on what I mentioned before.

So, it's about making sure that you have a psychological safe environment, making sure that you have, like, you set clear expectations around the purpose of the organization, even down to, providing support around, you know, development practices, and incentives will also help. You know? I think there's a lot of if you've got bonuses that are, you know, attributed to performance, then that is also a really good performance indicator that people are motivated by. Mhmm. You know, it's shown time and time again.

Otherwise, I wouldn't be there, in the world. And, I think just making sure that they create a culture of understanding that resting is good. You know? Like, even down to things like, you know, when you go on holiday, take some time out and actually switch off, and making sure that you have good working hours and things like that. But I think, this all seems really basic, but, honestly, so many companies just completely overthink it when they get into the but it that also comes down to policies as well, making sure that, you know, you do adhere to them Yeah.

Internally as well. And what about, like, different personality types, different job functions? So, you know, you mentioned before using example of, like, a salesperson with, like, a little black book and even now, like, bonuses. And you mentioned with your business as well, you had a commission structure. So, like, that all does kind of fall more into that kind of business development, maybe a bit more sort of customer success functions.

But what about other functions and those other sort of personalities that they tend to attract? Because, obviously, we're not all the same. So what I would definitely draw up on here is all around, like, leaning into your strengths. Yeah. And so as a classic example is, something called job crafting.

So within your particular role right now, think about all the strengths, the things that bring you energy. So where you really feel like you can get into a state of flow, you're really productive, you don't know where the time's gone, and you're just like, oh, that was great. I'm really happy with that. Think about all the things that you, do to reach that state of flow. And then, essentially, if you can, try and find someone else in your team to, like, match what you are lacking in.

So you can then all kind of be working in a state of flow and that you're way more productive in that way. So that's, like, something called job crafting, and, that's something I really recommend. So just identifying ways that could make you more productive, as a more of a holistic thing, and that we run workshops on that as well. Nice. Are there any practical tips either, like, at interview stage or assessments that founders in particular, you know, listening to this show, the more entrepreneurial audience, can they do anything at those early stages to help assess, like, what sort of personality and, like, how how can I craft this team where everyone's in flow and balancing each other out nicely?

Well, I think a lot of people like to draw upon psychometric assessments as as an example. What's your take on those? Well Love it. There is a lot of bias, sadly. Interesting.

And it's actually been shown that people from ethnic minorities actually overall perform worse on psychometric assessments. So in the spirit of diversity and inclusion, it's not the best form of assessing people. How come those are? There are reasons around it. Like, people generally from ethnic minority backgrounds might have not been exposed to them as early on, like, in their educational career.

Mhmm. And also, I think there's just a societal, issue just around, like, lack of representation of people who even reach the psychometric testing stage, for certain industries and jobs that, that there's just a bit of a trend on that. And I imagine, like, who the psychometric assessments have also been created by Yeah. Like the creators of those Exactly. Which is another bias in the system.

100%. So they're assessing it based on, yeah, just one demographic, essentially, and they try to validate them as much as possible these days. And they do have a place, but, I think you can definitely use them, but you need to use them in conjunction with structured interviews so that is the most validated, way of assessments. So are you following the same questions for each person that you, interview, following competency based frameworks, making sure that you have a scorecard to assess, who is, you know, like, how well that their responses are, based on, like, a one to five criteria, and you write down those criteria for each of the questions. So having quite a robust structure is really critical.

Also, having work samples, so I, you know, having a sample of work that you would be doing in that job and then assessing them based on that as well is, probably the most robust recruitment process you can have. Okay. Interesting. Does that assess everything though? Because I feel like there are some who maybe, like, have got that potential.

Maybe they don't interview as well. You know, you hear these cases of, like, people who are fantastic and they smash the interview, and then actually they get in, and it's a very different story and vice versa. You've got culture fit. You've got all these other things that, like, come out of the woodwork Mhmm. That don't get captured by this, like, robust scoring process.

So what can employers do with that? I think well, to capture culture, it's like, well, what is your culture? It's not just like lit state like, stickies on the wall or what have you. Yeah. I think, what else can we I guess emotion intelligence, like, comes into play here a lot of just kind of, like, vibes, or does that play even more into biases?

A 100%. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And I think that's what you're trying to eliminate.

So I think with you know, I think that's honestly the most robust structure you can go with. Mhmm. And then, you know, there are things like, you know, meet the team and, like, things like that, but then that also comes bias comes into play because it's like, you know, it's it's a factor. Yeah. Like, versus, like, actually, how well can they do the job?

And then, obviously, you want your team to get along and have, you know, good energy together and be able to work well together, but still the bias does come into play there. I guess that's really what I'm getting at is that tension and especially for startups, again, with our listeners in mind is, like, this whole thing around, like, culture fit. How do they get on with the team? But then to your point, it's like, well, that's you're measuring the likability factor, and you've all got your biases. Mhmm.

So is there is that just something that people just need to be conscious of and just look out for in that process? I think you can ask questions around, you know, values in the into process. So for example, I I did some work with a company called Cargo One, and one of their question one of their values was radical candor. And, also, you know, when can you tell me about the times that you have, failed, which I think is a fantastic question. Mhmm.

But it really identifies how people approach the failure and what their mindset is. Do they have a growth mindset and understand that they've learned from the process? So I think that's a killer question to ask in terms of, like, resilience, especially for startups because they really you need that. You need to be able to be adaptable to change. So asking questions around, you know, things like, you know, can you give me an example where something's changed really quickly in your organization?

What happened, and how did you deal with it? Yeah. I love that. I love those sort that sort of that level of specificity, those specific kind of tips for listeners to kinda really take away and bear in mind if they are interviewing at the moment. What's your take on those, like, kinda, like I don't know how to phrase this.

Like, those gamified interview tricks that certain leaders have. So for example, there's a famous I think, like, Charlie Munger. He had this thing where if the final, like, candidates, he'd take them out for lunch. And, like, the thing he's actually looking out for is, like, how they treat the waiter and Yeah. One particular thing I think, it might be somebody else.

I'm not sure if I've got this exactly right. But, like, if they sort their food first before they've tasted it, like, what's your take on that on those sorts of judgments, playing those sorts of games, those fun tests that people do or not so fun? I mean, look. People like to understand I think they're assessing skills that will come to play in a workplace setting. So in a way, I'm quite here for it.

And, also, people also forget that, you really need to get the buy in from the candidates too. Mhmm. So you need to sell the opportunity. So if you're taking them out for lunch, you're giving them time to speak, especially if you're a CEO, you're giving them that time to, like, really understand, ask questions, and build that rapport with that individual so that they will be like, okay. I get a job offer from this person.

Yeah. I love them. Let's do it. It's an opportunity for you to sell as the employer as well. Yeah.

I love that. Even though some bias might come into play Yeah. I think it's a fantastic way to, get involved in the group process. Yeah. Yeah.

Good. I like that take because I kinda love those things as as well. It can be a bit unfair. I'm kinda like, if you don't know the rules of the game, like, you're not really setting that up for for the fairest kind of assessment here. But I think I don't know.

I don't even know how true they are. Right? They're like urban urban legends because another one that's just come to mind as well is Brian Chesky. Apparently, I think more so in the early days, he would ask the final candidates, what they would what they would do if they, if they, like, won the lottery or or if they found out they only had, like, a year to live, like, those sorts of weird questions. And that was his very extreme way of assessing, like, how bought in they were to the Airbnb mission.

And, of course, nine out of 10, if not more than that, maybe 99 out of a 100, were like, I'm gonna go and sip on margaritas on a beach somewhere, like, obviously. I was like, right. You're out. You clearly don't care enough. Yeah.

I don't think that's fair. That's that's way too far. No. But I Apparently, he did get told off by his colleagues and investors for doing that. Good.

Yeah. Because But he was like, no. I need people who were, like, brought into the mission. It was a very different time. Yeah.

I think that questions like that, I mean, they still happen all the time. I've had interview processes where people have been interviewed after fifteen minutes, and they get the job, which isn't really Wow. Against other candidates. Wow. But, you know, at the end of the day, sometimes when it comes down to it, speed is critical for hires.

And, you know, even when you're doing hiring as well, like, even though, like, have you done this job before? Cool. Great. You can come and so that was Are there any wild stories that you've come across in your time? Obviously, no need to name names, but, like I had a inter an interview happen on a swing before.

So As in with you? No. Somebody had, did a video call, but they took the call on their phone. And they were just on a swing swinging. So that was quite an interesting one.

But, you know, you get the standard stories of, like, oh, you know, someone's died, so you can't tell anything too, but that's all just standard stuff. Wow. Yeah. That used to happen all the time. So I hope Used to happen all the time?

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. People use family members dying not to turn up to interviews all the time. Oh.

Yeah. As an excuse to not not turn up to the interview, to not start their jobs. Oh. Yeah. The amount of people that suddenly drop down to Yeah.

Yeah. That's good. Thanks. That's hilarious. Yeah.

Any other red flags that employees should look out for in that interview process? Like Yeah. Levels of engagement throughout the interview process. So I think one of the key indicators that I've learned over the years is if someone isn't responding to you within a timely manner, I. E.

Within a day It's a really red flag. Real red flag. You wanna know that they're really interested in you as an employer. Mhmm. And also, you want the excitement there.

You know? You want them to be like, oh, this is a great opportunity. Yes. If someone just doesn't, like, takes three working days to respond to you Yeah. That's a huge red flag.

And, honestly, I have recommended to clients in the past. You know, we should pull that candidate based on the level of engagement. And they might not know that might not seem fair, and I know lots of people would be gasping in horror potentially. But if you're not showing that you're interested, then Especially at the start, right, when you are supposed to be in that, like, I guess, more honeymoon period. Like, if you're not that excited at the start, then Mhmm.

How well is it gonna go from here? Do you have any other, like, organizational psychology insights you wanna share before we move on? I'm just fascinated in, like, this masters that you're doing. Is there anything I haven't already touched on that you'd like to share? Bear with me.

Yeah. Yeah. Please check your notes. I want I want you to make sure that we share what's on your notes here. What have I got here?

I think we covered most things. You know? I think some of the key things that I've learned about that I love are just understanding myself better at work, understanding what's motivated me or hasn't like, the environments I've been in that haven't enabled me to thrive. Like, let's pull up. Let's draw up on the, you know, connectedness piece again.

Yeah. You know, being a remote worker. I know I've had friends who have become really depressed Wow. As a result of working remotely. And if they just change their environment and then had some built those relationships again in person, even if it's a hybrid once a week, it can really, really significantly impact people's mental health and their engagement at work and make them far more productive and help with their well-being.

There's just so much within it. So I think, from a remote worker standpoint, that so many start up scale ups work remotely as a cost saving benefit. But you really need to understand about the impact that it's having on your staff even if they're not talking about it with you. I think having honest conversations has also been a real key thing that has come out of it. So creating environments where people have the space to speak, about how they're feeling at work and just generally, we I mean, even at Bailey and French, we have honest conversation.

We have conversation mats, which are guided conversations around things like well-being, like team team flows, understanding team effectiveness, around performance motivation. But they really enable people to have a real deeper conversation about how they're feeling at work and then make practical tips in order to, make changes Yeah. Or have extra skill development that they need. And actually solve the issue. Yeah.

I was gonna ask you as well about your own experience, especially when you're talking about flow and, like, leaning into your strengths. So what are some of yours, and when are when are you in flow? I this is a really good question. I think some of my strengths are, like, communicating with people. Makes sense from a recruiter.

I know. I just really enjoy being around people and just uncovering who they are. And I think that's probably one reason why I've ended up becoming a psychologist as well. Mhmm. And I really just get into flow when I and I get I get a lot of energy from other people as a, you know, classic extrovert, I guess.

So I think that's probably one of my key strengths. When you mentioned about really understanding, like, who people are, given you're not that much of a fan of those, like, psychometric assessments, what do do you use any sort of, like, framework at all in that case then, like, star signs, astrology? I don't know. Like, how do you how are you like, oh, okay. That makes sense because of x y zed.

Like I guess from my experience, I just draw upon that. I mean, and do you mean in a work process or, like, a personal experience? Just, yeah, just the the human. Right? Like, how like, I guess, is it fair to, like, categorize them in that sort of way Yeah.

Or, like, your your process of, like, figuring people out? I think there is some really interesting work out there. So you can think about the cult people often refer to colors Yeah. By, like, insights. So you've got, like, red, blue, yellow, and green.

Yeah. And there is attributes across those different colors, and then it puts people in a box. But then people think that they can't be one or or the other. Mhmm. And therefore, people will also you there's also research out there that people will approach you, let's say, if you've got a color on your desk because a lot of people organizations have this.

And then they feel like they can't approach you if you've got a red brick on your desk. So, like, I e, you're more entrepreneurial or but people look at the negative connotation sometimes as that, and that's what I don't really, like, appreciate because it's it's it doesn't give a holistic view of who that person is, and it really puts them in a box. But then there are other, things like Luminous Spark as an example, who do assessments of, like, 50 or so questions to really understand what your personality type is. Yeah. And they have, like, a splash on a sheet, which kind of demonstrates where you really fall into in terms of your different characteristics.

Yeah. And I find it really helpful because there's also one thing as well that and they it kinda demonstrates how you work under pressure Mhmm. Which I think is really important. So it's really helps people become more self aware around, like, how they're approaching situations. Mhmm.

And I do think there's a lot of value in that even though I have said, you know, psychometrics have lots of bias, but at the same time, there is a place for them. So I think things like that are really interesting, actually. Yeah. I love the sound of it. And I think what makes a lot of sense to me on that is it it seems to allow more space for that nuance, and it's more kind of like rank a bit more highly here, a bit more low here as opposed to that real, like, rigid, like, categorization, like, you're red, you're yellow, you're this, you're that Exactly.

Where, of course, we are so much more complex. And, I mean, it's also, like, you know, timing is a factor as well. Right? Not only how different of a person you might be from one year to the next, but even just, like like, you know, within a day, within a week. I mean, as women as well.

Right? Like, we've got our cycles. There's all of these other things that, like, sometimes I'm not feeling as resilient as others. So it's like, is a psychometric assessment gonna answer that for me? And even on cognitive ability testing, you can do an a test one year, and then a few years later, you score much highly.

Right. And that's down to neuroplasticity. So, like, you know, how your brain actually does develop. And it is there is lots of evidence to show that your brain does develop over time, and you can become more intelligent. Yeah.

What that does really highlight for me, actually, I've never really realized, is the risk of those psychometric assessments is actually, like, how much we can internalize that identity Mhmm. And how actually that can hold back some people because they're like, no. I'm this. No. I'm that.

Mhmm. Whether you are an MBTI, ENFJ, yellow, brown, like, Capricorn. Yeah. You know? And it's kind of like I get what you're saying because it's like, on the one hand, it can help you to better understand who you are and your strengths and where you've thrived, but on the other, it can also create those limitations even just just for yourself as an individual.

Mhmm. Are you familiar with the, the Gallup Clifton strengths assessment? The strengths finder. I think they renamed it. Is there anything else?

I know of strength scope. Oh, okay. Yeah. Similar. Yeah.

Probably. I'm a huge fan of that. Yeah. I love that. I I I'm guessing it's kinda similar.

Right? Where, like, it assesses your natural strengths, your abilities. What's your take on that? Are you a fan? Totally.

Because all of our work is focused very much around strengths. And, you know, the positive psychology, ethos is all around understanding what your strengths are so then you can flourish. Yeah. Exactly. So if you can identify them, like, through, you know, those psychometric kind of tests, then that's that's awesome.

Mhmm. But, you know, it's also really good to just have general awareness of what they are. Yeah. So then you can be happier and flourish and be more productive. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Love it. It all makes sense.

Alright. Let's shift gears here for a sec. Let's go over to your previous chapter. So you set up you were a recruiter for many years. You set up your own business called Autus.

Mhmm. What led to you ultimately deciding to end that chapter? Tell us about what Autus was first and and that story. Yeah. Absolutely.

Well, Autus, I started in the midst of the pandemic, you know, sat at home thinking I could just give this a go and try out running a recruitment agency. I've done it for, like, for I don't know about that point, probably ten years or so working, and I worked in Australia. I'd worked in Canada. So I'm kind of somebody that likes to have like, have a bit of a challenge and change my environment. Nice.

So I thought let's give it a go. And, yeah, grew the team out. We base well, we basically did tech sales hiring and get well, go to market hiring for VC tech startups all across Europe, US, and Singapore. Mhmm. We grew out to a team of about eight of the biggest headcount.

Mhmm. We did, like, half million in our first, year of turnover. So we did pretty well. Mhmm. But then, honestly, so much hit the fan post pandemic, around the, well, the desire and, I I guess, for recruitment services because so many companies are doing started to go into layoff.

So many companies, VCs were pulling out funding, and even down to Silicon Bank Valley. Mhmm. Silicon Valley Bank. Yeah. Yeah.

Going under, really impacted a lot of the businesses that I worked with. And so, we I just had to, unfortunately, get rid of some of my staff because, which was really, really difficult for me to do. I was, you know, in my early thirties. I was devastated that I'd have to let my team go, and it was really I felt like a failure. Mhmm.

And I think a lot of people can probably resonate with that. Yeah. For sure. And so I tried to rebuild, and, I rehired, like, three or four of my my staff. I had let go Oh, wow.

Which is awesome. Oh. But then, ultimately, like, the economic climate was just not in working in our favor after, like, such a high. Mhmm. So then I just decided to reduce headcount again, sadly, and I think I was just kinda questioning, you know, if I really loved it anymore.

I'd hit burnout without a doubt. Mhmm. I just completely love lost the love of what I was doing. Yeah. And so I would wanted to try and understand what went wrong, why my motivation completely crashed and burned for it.

I just didn't care anymore about it. I would try desperately to, like, push myself every day, but it was feel like felt like walking through mud. Yeah. And so I just kinda discovered the world of organizational psychology and wanted to understand why I felt that way. And I don't want any other people to feel that way too.

So, you know, going through the study now really helps people have the best, like, workplace practices to not let that happen to other people. Yeah. So interesting. And this must be almost therapeutic for yourself as well. Right?

Like, quite cathartic, almost as part of that recovery as being that business owner. You've been through the wringer. And so going back into, like, education, I can imagine that sort of feeling a bit more kind of like, okay. So for territory, we know what we're doing. I complete the opposite to, like, being your own boss, running your own business, but actually leveraging those new learnings to better understand what you went through.

Mhmm. It sounds like with your journey and we'll we'll dive a bit more into that as well if you don't mind. But it's just going back to your journey with Autos. It sounds like you got off to, like, an amazing start. Like, hitting half a million in your first year is phenomenal.

So congratulations. Thank you. And then it feels or it seems as though it was much more of a struggle from there, which is usually the inverse in these stories. Right? Usually, it's that zero to one is the hardest.

Is that correct? And, like, what can you speak to on that sort of the highs and lows in your journey there? There are so many highs and lows in that journey. Is that a correct interpretation of that sort? Like, was it It was.

Yeah. A great start and then challenge from there? It was a slow start within the first sort of six months Mhmm. Finding your feet. But then we really, like, went Amazing.

Off. Can you attribute that to anything in particular? That, like, breakthrough? That was probably down to confidence. Oh.

You know? I was sat at home alone in the pandemic, wasn't able to see anybody, and didn't have any feedback from anyone reassuring me that what I was doing was right because I was living by myself as well. I think, honestly, the many wins were just giving me that extra bit of confidence. Nice. I got a big project with Bolt, and we did quite a lot of hiring for them.

So having a great brand within our first month of opening the doors Amazing. Really set us off for something really cool. Nice. And then we just kind of built. Yeah.

I just kinda got into flow. Nice. You know? From there, I just got a bit of training, got more motivation, decided to hire a third person within six months Wow. Probably or maybe eight months.

And, yeah, they were amazing as well. Wow. Wow. So they were like, hiring the right people really early on really helped me to ensure that we reach that. And I can imagine at that point as well, like, practically speaking, you would have had, like, some case studies under your belt, got a bit of marketing, been to quite a few events.

Like, so, to all of that coalescing, confidence building, hiring the right person Mhmm. And there's other kind of wins in your in your wings, which sounds amazing. So what happened from there? What was kind of then when did we go to our next sort of low? Oh, a classic one is probably when I worked with a seed funded, like, restaurant tech company Mhmm.

Similar to, like, an Uber Eats kind of thing, but they were also payments related. Mhmm. They were hiring like crazy. So they we did 20 hires for them in two months. Wow.

And this was to kinda get their feet on the ground so they could set themselves up to go for a series a funding round. They, unfortunately, didn't secure the series a and had massively overspent their seed funding round. So they owed us pretty well, we had five people due to start, and we had 20 people, like, overall due. We were due loads of loads of invoices. Anyway, though, just like a $150.

No. And That is a chunk for this size of your business as well. Yeah. And That's a good percentage of your annual revenue right there. Yeah.

Fuck. So then I had to call a lawyer and, try to understand how I could mitigate this and get all the money because my terms were tight. Yeah. So key learnings from this were, like, get a really good lawyer award and also, make sure that you've yeah. You yeah.

That was a whole thing. Yeah. Yeah. What was the upshot of that? Were you able to get back the money?

I managed to negotiate with the CEO through a letter fraction to make sure that I got paid. Yeah. And, thankfully, I managed to negotiate pretty much full payment. Good. But that, like, you know, at early thirties was just, like, Such a blow.

It was such a blow. And not only that, all of my team had worked so, so hard Yeah. On getting those 20 hires over the life. That's demotivating. So Exactly.

So then I then had to try and reengage my my staff to make sure that they were all gonna get paid, you know, even though the cash flow was a real issue Yeah. And to keep them engaged with their jobs. Yeah. And so we did actually manage to, like, do fairly well in the couple of quarters after that, to be honest, because my my, like, top performer, she really was like, this is really intense. Really took a hit.

Yeah. I really took a hit on her. And, like, those kinds of things happen in business. And she was really young and, like, you know, those things are really gonna affect your motivation. It's out of the day.

Because you think that you failed. Yeah. And, actually, it's got nothing to do with you, and it's so demotivating Yep. To think that you've faced all those people and then Claudia, been there, done that. Definitely got more of those stories.

What I wanna connect that to actually is the risk tolerance piece because this was something I learned I think running your own business, I think you said this as well with with Autus, with your company, like, it teaches you so much about yourself as well. And, obviously, like, you know, by default of being a business owner, you've already kinda taken kind of a bigger risk than kind of the average person. Like, you've taken that leap anyway. But I think within the entrepreneurial, like, spectrum of risk tolerance, one of the things I learned about myself was actually I don't think I took enough risk. But then you have those blows, and as I've kind of alluded to, I had a few of those situations as well.

And you mentioning with your team is like, well, good bloody job. I wasn't so risk aggressive like these guys. I'm blown all this cash that we don't actually have because I'm able to now weather that storm Right. Very practically and, like, directly speaking, I've got enough of a financial buffer to keep paying my team and keep the promises that I've made them. Did that ever come up for you in terms of that risk tolerance specifically?

And, like, specifically with your finances, did you ever feel like, oh, maybe we should be investing more in our marketing? Or Yeah. Like, actually, no. We've got enough of a buffer so I can keep paying my team. I'd love to just get your take on all that.

That's a really good question. I think at that point, I probably did become far more risk averse because, I you know, cash flow is king Exactly. In the day. And so I really pulled back. And, actually, I think without probably realizing it, I probably lost a little bit of confidence around, like, taking those risks.

Mhmm. I was very much kind of, like I really enjoyed the element of being an entrepreneur where I could, like, test things and play with things, see what works, see what didn't, and I think I probably stopped doing that as much. You've wasted twice so. Yeah. Like, investing in some new technology or hiring somebody or, you know, working with a really good marketing, like, marketer as on a freelance basis to come in and do some, like, really cool things to shake things up Yeah.

On, like, you know, a project basis. I probably didn't do that as well. Yeah. Knocks your confidence, doesn't it? Claudia, I 1000% relate.

Totally, totally relates. This is where we've got so many parallels in our story. So coming to that, so you've gone through those blows. Ultimately, a few years later, you know, the market has turned. You're so demotivated.

I'd love to now kind of at this point in the story sort of talk about your reflections on entrepreneurship versus employment. Like, now you have been your own boss. Now you've had your own company. We touched a little bit before we started recording here around how glamorized entrepreneurship still is. Mhmm.

And this is kind of part of the show as well. Like, I know this is for entrepreneurs, and I really wanna provide both inspiration and education to my entrepreneurial listeners. But there is that element. You know, it's called strategy and tragedy because it isn't always all it's cracked up to be. So I'd love to also just get your take on on that whole piece of overglamorized entrepreneurship versus employment now that you're kind of, like, on the other side of being your own boss and back to being an employee again.

Well, I was constantly anxious Yeah. Being an entrepreneur. But I really Preach. Yeah. I thrive off chaos.

And I think that I've really learned like you said, like, I learned so much about myself. It's the steepest learning curve you could ever have. Yeah. I learned that having a coach was, like, fun like, just amazing. Same.

Having someone to check-in with every week Yeah. Is amazing to, like, keep you on track, make sure that you sense check you, make sure you're not going crazy. Like, have just a little bit of a debrief or just rant too. And help you get perspective as well sometimes. Like, we lose that.

Like, when we're so close to it, can't see the wood for the trees, haven't slept enough, and you get some bad news, and you get a shitty email from a client, and you're just like, what the fuck? Yeah. So even someone just says stop and just breathe Exactly. Yeah. Is amazing.

And I I loved it. I did love it, and it really kind of got me going in in the morning. And I loved I loved my team. I I just really was, like, took them under my wing, and I really wanted them to be so happy and really enjoy where they're working because, you know, we work so many days a week that you wanna create an environment where people really, like, love it. Yeah.

And so I did really enjoy it, but it was really tough. And I don't think unless people have been an entrepreneur themselves, they have no idea. Yeah. You know? Yeah.

Like I said, like, going through the legal battles and, like, letting my team go, and, and that's all part of, like, what is gonna happen if you run a business for long enough. Like, you're gonna have all these things that come in the way, but I think it's just about building your resilience, and I think you build natural resilience through going through so much. Yeah. And so that's probably put me in a position now moving forward where I'm probably quite a resilient person. Mhmm.

Although it was very it was difficult at the time, and, like, I've I've just learned so much going through this whole process. Mhmm. And I'm really enjoying working for someone again. How? Because I love working around, like, like minded people, people I can share, like, ideas with.

I think that's really what it comes down to. See. If I would do ever do it again, I'd probably get a cofounder Yeah. Or a few Yeah. Yeah.

To really match your strengths and really, you know, combine it because there are definite things where I'd have major, like like, weaknesses. Yeah. And I feel like, you know, if you get people who can just compliment what you do, that's brilliant. And that's why I'm really enjoying working for someone again. Nice.

And also I don't have to worry about cash flow right now. Yeah. Yeah. I have that in the back of my mind, and it probably makes me quite a good employee because I'm really conscious of the impact of everything right now. You've run your own business before.

Yeah. Are you are you so much more grateful now for those sorts of things as an employee that you had? I am probably far less bitchy. I'm much more grateful. So much more grateful.

And Yeah. Yeah, I just really appreciate all the struggles that people go through. Like, I think my CEO sometimes is just like, you'll understand, and I'm like, I do. So I'm like, take your time. Do what you need to do.

Like, if you need me, I'm here kind of thing. You know? Yes. Yeah. Because it's a struggle running your race.

What is your perspective on that kind of glamorization of entrepreneurship and, like, any potential, like, shame on doing air quotes? People can't see me because it was obviously ridiculous, but that's it. Is there anything on that that you were maybe maybe not so much now because I feel like you're in a much better place, but, like, maybe at the time of taking that decision to step away from the business and close that chapter, like, was there any did you have to battle any sort of, like, inner shame or guilt or what people think or, like, now that I'm, like, leaving that entrepreneurship? It's funny that you say that. I had someone who I was looking to kind of merge more businesses with, and she has come to me recently and said, I don't wanna do this anymore.

Mhmm. What did you go through? She felt like she was a failure. And, honestly, I think I'd already grieved and felt like a failure before Pregrieved. Yeah.

Have you seen Succession? I had. Yeah. Okay. Pregrieved it.

And so, therefore, there wasn't that much shame. And I didn't really get I'm like, I'm in control of my own narrative. Yeah. Fantastic. If people were looking at me online being like, oh, her business has shut down.

All what went wrong there. I don't care. Good. I'm like, I like, you don't know all what I've gone through. Yeah.

Of course. And, also, it's like, I'm in a much better place now Yeah. Than I was at the end of my business because I've gone through a whole journey of learning. And I think I can only take everything that I've learned as, like, a real positive into the future because yeah. So what did you say to your friend who was grappling with that?

He was like, I wanna throw in the towel. I just said you have done so well. Not many people would ever take the risk that you've taken. And even got this far. You are so courageous to do to do this.

And I was like, put that shame in the bin because you are a boss, and, no, I'm not having it. And she was like, okay. Good advice. Good advice. I think I genuinely I really do genuinely believe that I mean, we know that it is it is worse, but I honestly do think there should be more shame.

I shouldn't say it that way. But, like, I do think it is worse when people go so far the other way that they are flogging a dead horse. Mhmm. And when there is that stubbornness to keep, I mean, I don't know so much with I I think, like, all b to b service businesses, it's slightly different if you've got that, like, tech, that products. You're trying to get that product market fit.

You're trying to get investment for it. Like, obviously, very different sort of business model. I think maybe more so with that sort of thing, where, like, the writing's on the wall, there is no validation, there are no positive indicators here. We are so much better off either parking this, pivoting, maybe coming back to to another time when the market has shifted. So I genuinely do believe that knowing when to quit, like, knowing when to throw in the towel, and I don't wanna be using that sort of language.

Right? But just knowing that, like, this is it is so much more kind of noble than just kinda, like, keep be like, yeah, flogging the dead horse. For what? Exactly. And so many people end up putting themselves into debt.

Like Yeah. Personal debt in order to fund the business. Yeah. I think you just need to know and cut it before it gets to that point or even just look at, like, where you can chop up the business and get pieces of it acquired. You know?

Yeah. That's a good way of looking at it as well. Think about what assets you have Yeah. And the values that you have within the organization, whether it's something where from that. Whatever it is, to make sure that it doesn't all just go down the path.

Yeah. And I think a really like, to clarify nuance in this is there is definitely that argument for resilience and risk tolerance that we've touched on. And so when you say about, okay, people like maybe remortgaging their homes, putting themselves into personal debt, it's like, okay. Like, I definitely know some entrepreneurs who've got the stomach for that. And maybe that has been a prerequisite for success because it's like, you know, he or she who dares wins kind of thing.

Right? And you've kinda like, okay. You've taken that amount of risk. But I think the the real kinda, like, fine line to clarify here is is, like, the validation and the indicators that you've got that separate the stubbornness. So, like, you may well believe that there's something here, and I appreciate that, like, passion and excitement to go for it.

But if no one else agrees with you, like, that's that's where you draw the line. Mhmm. Final traditional closing question on this show, one tragedy that's taught you an unforgettable lesson, Claudia. I think it has to come back to the lawsuit that I went through. Oh, really?

Yeah. I think that, you know, losing a potential $150 overnight and not being able to pay my staff was just, like, a real tragedy. Mhmm. But it taught me so much. It taught me how to engage with a lawyer.

It taught me how to reengage my staff after a tragedy like that. Yeah. It also taught me that I need to have lots of cash flow in the bank, and it gave me resilience to know that if I ever go through something like that again, I've got it covered. Yeah. Love that.

Well done, Yi. Any final words of wisdom you might wanna leave with our guests before we wrap? Anything I haven't already asked you. I think entrepreneurship in general is a worldwide, and it's a roller coaster and you gotta hold on. I think everyone should do it once.

Yeah. I think everyone should get a summer job in a bar once. I would like if I were the queen of the world, I I would make it compo almost like the the military service. Like, I'd make it compulsory Yeah. To, like, work in hospitality for, like, a summer.

And I might entertain the idea of everyone trying entrepreneurship once as well to your point. Yeah. No. I think, maybe it's not for everyone. Do you know what I mean?

But Yeah. But give it a shot. I think it just teaches you so much about yourself. And, what have you got to lose? I mean, probably only live once.

YOLO. Exactly. Only live once, and I'm very much of that attitude that you just gotta grab life by the balls and just go for it. So Love it. Amazing.

Alright. Well, good note to end this song. Claudia, thank you so much for coming on the show. Appreciate you sharing your wisdom, your stories. I really hope the listeners have taken something away from this.

If you have, please hit that subscribe or follow button if you haven't already. Thank you so much for listening. Thank you for joining. Really hope you've enjoyed this, and hopefully, see you time.

SM: And thank you so much for listening. Really hope that you've enjoyed this episode as well. Don't forget to hit that subscribe button. Honestly, it really helps me out.

Episodes are weekly, so make sure to tune in next time, and hopefully see you there.

Strategy & Tragedy: CEO Stories with Steph Melodia is the best podcast for curious entrepreneurs and ambitious founders. Learn from those a few steps ahead of you in these candid interviews of the highs and lows of scaling and failing business.

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