The Startup Lawyer: Trisha Wing

Strategy & Tragedy: CEO Stories with Steph Melodia is the best business podcast for curious entrepreneurs featured in the UK's Top 20 charts for business shows.

Hosted by Stephanie Melodia, Strategy & Tragedy features candid interviews with entrepreneurs who have scaled - and failed - their businesses - sharing their lessons in entrepreneurship along the way. From Simon Squibb of 'What's Your Dream?' Internet fame to Lottie Whyte of Sunday Times Top 100 Fastest-Growing company, MyoMaster. From exited founders like Nick-Telson Sillett to subject matter experts like Alex Merry in the public speaking arena and Matt Lerner, the GOAT of Growth.

This is one of the best podcasts to listen to if you're looking for educational and inspirational content on Spotify, Apple, Google, Amazon, YouTube or watch the clips on Instagram, LinkedIn, TikTok, or YouTube Shorts

In this week's episode, Stephanie Melodia interviews Trisha Wing, the Co-Founder & CEO of SuLe, a first-of-its-kind legal platform supporting startups at every stage of their growth. SuLe is the smart legal hub that cuts legal costs 90%. Book a free call here.

In this interview, Steph and Trish cover:

• Jargon-free legal wisdom - from company ownership to IP

• The most common legal traps to avoid

• Managing co-founder partnerships

• Practical help and support for entrepreneurs

• Trish's own entrepreneurial journey - from building a tech product as a non-technical founder, meeting her perfect match, and how she fundraised to scale impact

Watch on YouTube via the link below or keep reading for the transcript:

SM: I wanna make sure that we give some practical advice, some tips to our entrepreneurial listeners before we dive in more into your own incredible entrepreneurial story, so give us a little bit of context on your background.

TW: So I started off my career, knowing I wanted to be a lawyer. I always knew that law is a power. It's a power that everyone needs to have and not everyone has it. And managed to kinda land myself in a top law firm, bird and bird. Realized while I was there that I wanted to go even higher, so I then went into Orick. Then I realized I had this skill that most lawyers don't have. I found it really easy to speak to clients. I found it really easy to bring in deals. And when I was at NQ, which is, like, level zero at a law firm, I was bringing in clients to the firm, Realized I wanted to do this bigger and went out and to build SuLe that I have today.

SM: That is incredible. And we're definitely gonna talk about this business development skill that you have, the sales. You're a very natural salesperson, and that's obviously such a crucial skill for any entrepreneur. So we're gonna talk about that too.

But first of all, give us the elevator pitch for what SuLe is exactly and share some of the most common mistakes that you see early stage founders make.

TW: So 75% of companies in the UK don't get legal support. That's a fact. Done by the government. And the reason for this is is time and money. People don't have the the time to spend all this on on on legal, and they don't have the cost to pay for big law firms.

What we're doing is building a platform where you can streamline your access to legal. So any area of law that you need help with, you can do for our platform. Because people need help with legal. They don't know where to find it or they don't have the money to pay for big law firms. So the cost that you'll spend with us, you'll save 70-90% than when you pay for an actual law firm.

SM: And what do founders actually get through signing up on the platform? Is it pure resources? Is it access to legal advice?

TW: So you get the same quality documents that you would have in working with a law firm because a little little secret into the industry is every law firm gets documents from the same place.

SM: Okay. You had it here first, guys!!

TW: So they all come from the same source, and you get them on SuLe. And so we built a platform where you can do it yourself. They can access lawyers on demand as well, which is, like, really unique. Most times people go onto an online site, they download some contracts that mean nothing to their business, sign it, and then realize down the line they need to change it, and sometimes it's too late. So what we do is we build a place where you know what you need to do, what are the steps that I have to take to do the right thing. You can build the documents through the platform. And if you need legal help, you can access a lawyer on demand.

SM: Something I wanna talk about is the from in my own experience and from working with lots of incredible entrepreneurs, the whole, like, getting legal support, it feels like a much more of a protectionist reactionary step that you take when you need it, right? And it's it's almost like not taking out insurance. It's just kinda like, oh, we'll be fine, and you kinda go on a hope and a prayer until something does happen.

Is that a common mistake, and how how important is it for entrepreneurs to maybe start getting on the front foot with that as opposed to coming and looking for help when it's too late?

TW: You hit the nail on the head there. The reason for that is because founders don't know what they need to do. It's like a minefield. No one knows what they have to do to make sure they're not making mistakes down the line. And that's kind of a real big thing that we see with founders. It's like, okay. I know I need to raise money. I don't know how I do it. I don't know what I need to do beforehand. It's such a minefield out there. And often you would pay a law firm to help you navigate this, but no one has 20 k to drop down to get access to that. And that's that's a big problem.

SM: Especially while you are fundraising,

TW: To be able to get the cash in the first place.

SM: Exactly. So is that one of the most common areas that you see founders needing legal advice with, the fundraise?

TW: Definitely. Yeah. How do you get investment ready? We do a lot around this. Because working at top law firms, you see this road map. You see this the expertise that goes into understanding what companies need to get investment ready. So we built, like, a whole checklist - you can navigate it online on our platform?

SM: Nice. What do you need to do to get investment ready? Can you share, like, top three tips?

TW: So the key three areas that from the legal side that investors would care about is IP. Like, your most valuable asset as a tech company usually is your IP.

SM: That sounds for intellectual property, by the way, in case. Can you give us examples of IP just in case?

TW: Yeah So Nike. Everyone knows Nike the brand. Nike the name is their brand. The tick is, is a logo. Just do it as a saying. And they'll probably have built a platform on application. They'll have loads of IP in the application, how they use it. Anything that you can anything that makes your company more valuable to potentially use IP. If you've drafted a article online, that's your IP. If any software you're building is your IP. The AirPods case, like, when they open and close it, like, that magnetic connection. There's so much with IP.

SM: Oh, that's interesting. Really cool one.

TW: Like, the foldable plugs they built, that foldable extension on the plug where you can fold it and put in your bag. There's there's IP in that.

SM: Wow.

TW: Basically, any cool innovation that we're building today is included in the IP.

And when you're speaking to investors, what they want to know is what is you the valuable asset in your business? Intellectual property is what it says intellectual. You can't touch it. It's, you know, it's of the mind. It's a creation of the mind. And whereas property, you can feel it. So, what is your most valuable asset in your business?

And then you have, like, the ownership of your company. So this can fall into do own the shares in your company. We did, a study, and 65% of companies didn't own the shares because people think when you first start your company, you go in company's house, you create your company, you own the company. That's not true. Companies house is a registrar.

SM: Wait Newsflash. What?

TW: Yeah. It's a registrar. It's where you go to, like, publicly display what your company does.

SM: Fuck. Wednesday, Thursday, Friday? What?

TW: So because you you're reg but if you're the only director of the company

SM: So who owns the shares?

TW: Well, we yeah. But the the argument is, I mean, there's less less risk there. It's all a level of risk. If you're the only director, the only you say you're the only shareholder, who's going to dispute you?

SM: Yeah.

TW: If you have multiple shareholders and you haven't done it the right way That's what you need. Then it's a higher risk.

SM: So Okay. How do you prove ownership of shares in the company?

TW: Well, you have to have a share register. That's not a company's house. It should be separate. And then you have to have share certificates where you can prove this is I own these shares. And then that's when you update the register on and stuff like that.

So actually having ownership of your company is an important one, and lots people don't.

SM: Wow.

TW: And then you can extend that further and think about, okay, who owns the company? So your cofounder relationship. You know, the amount of founders that break up.

Each week, we get a new cofounder breakup relationship.

SM: Wow, really?

TW: Every week, we have one now. Any lawyer you speak to will say the same thing.

SM: And on that note, because that's just super interesting, what's the most common reason? Or do they tell you? Do you find out?

TW: Yes. I would say the most common reason is not setting the the terms of relationship upfront. It's like a marriage. Right? If you haven't had that difficult discussion about what are your values, are our values aligned? Are we both expecting the same thing? Are you both have the same, like, aligned interests? Then if you don't have that conversation, it it goes wrong often. Given the frequency of seeing cofounder breakups, at least weekly at the moment.

SM: Is there any correlation at all to, like, how they came about forming in the first place?

So for example, where I'm coming from is, like, I'm really fascinated in, like, cofounder pairings. What I noticed years ago was the best cofounder relationships, they either I'm really interested in how they first met. So they either first met at uni and, like, hilariously, like, freshers week. They just, like, bonded through alcohol in their first week of, like, of uni when they were 18, which you there is something in that as as much as that makes me laugh. There's something in that connection that's that that bonding that's happened at that point, right, and what you go through in those uni years and everything else. If it's not that, it's then you have worked together in another place. So, of course, that's super logical as, like, we've both actually had this working relationship. So that's kind of where I'm coming from a bit with that question is, like, is there any correlation at all to, like, how those cofounders met or anything else with that relationship that's led to that breakup?

TW: So often, cofounders will meet we often find they meet in some kind of accelerator, you know, like Antler. And that often can work well. Now the more cofounders you have, the higher the chance someone's going to leave. That's just a fact. It's a statistical fact.

SM: Okay. Is there a dangerous number? Do you know?

TW: No. There's not. I mean, it's I think it's hard to predict like, completely predict, and it's hard to completely manage, but you have to just try your best. If there's two of you, I think you can better try and manage the breakout. It didn't not happen in. But when there's three or four, there's a chance someone will leave. And you just need to better protect yourself beforehand. That's kind of the key thing.

SM: Well, just on that note, sorry. I'm getting excited here. One of the other amazing interviews is with Anna-Sophie Hartvigsen, who's one of the three co-founders of Female Invest. And today, they are now the best funded startup led by an all female team, which is incredible. Fund raised a total of, I think, like, $24M, like, absolutely amazing.

And we had a quick discussion on that as well because there's three of them. And I was kinda like, oh, it's kinda rare. Like, usually, you do get those pairings as you say. And, I mean, obviously, for them, like, it works magnificently. This is, you know, just one particular successful case study, but her argument was, like, you have a bit of that tripod effect. It does kinda help if you there is kind of, like, you are at loggerheads and there's another person to maybe you know, if there's two against one instead of one against one kinda coming up. So pros and cons.

TW: That's very true. Some of the issues when there's just two of you is what happens when you both just disagree. You know, is does one person override the other? Are they equal shareholders? And if there's three, it does make a more democratic decision making process. And, actually, that's why when you'll grow your company through seed series a, you'll have more board members for this exact reason. You want to have more people on the board, so it's not, like, always at crosshead.

SM: Yeah. It doesn't always need to come from the cofounder, does it?

TW: No, it doesn't.

SM: The other way around as well, there's another interesting argument on being a solo founder. Like, I was with my last business. I honestly maybe I was lucky, but, like, I was never lonely. Like, we talk a lot about, like, being lonely when you're and I was like, no. I had my team. And these are and a coach and and, you know, these are the kind of whether it is board advisers, consultants, whatever. Like, these are the people that can come in and support you. It doesn't need to be cofounders.

TW: That's a good point. This is another VC issue. The VC push, you have to have a cofounder. If you're not technical, you need to get someone technical. And it's a real risk because you mean I mean, I've spoken to, like, thousands of companies over the course of starting this business, like thousands. And what you see is people come and they say, I need to find a cofounder. I need to get a cofounder agreement. Okay. But why do you need it?

SM: It's this external pressure that's come from somewhere else.

TW: And I would say I would I would not have a cofounder if I named her my cofounder. She was, like, the the right fit. She if she was a man, we'd be married. 100%.

SM: I was gonna take this opportunity on the cofounder thing. We will go back to, like, the most common mistakes. We will get back to the legal advice because that's all such amazing tips you've already started sharing with with the listeners. But given we're on the cofounder conversation, I was gonna ask you about that.

Where you've got a cofounder, what's the share split, if you don't mind?

TW: Yes. I have a greater share split than her. I think that does make a difference. Because when I first started the business, I put my whole life savings into the business. Every penny I have to my name has gotten in. Which is why I had to, like, rent out my apartment and, like, I risked everything for this business. And before I ever took any investment money, that was, like, my my commitment. I'd already built a product, already had revenue. So it was a different dynamic. It does make sense. And when you're first starting your company, if you're both starting at the same time. Both risking everything together, it's a very different conversation. And we have such good mutual respect. There's no conflict in our role. She knows I'm CEO. I know she's head of product. And so we both respect each other's experience and expertise. That is really important because I know a lot of people, they're fighting for the same position. They haven't had that clear conversation saying, one person is CEO, one person is CEO.

They haven't had that discussion, and the and they overlap on each other's areas. And that's where I think it can get dangerous. And, you know, I've done it before where I try to get too involved in a product, and I'm like, hey. This isn't this isn't what I'm I'm best at. I should hand over to someone who who knows what they're doing.

SM: And I think ego comes into that equation as well. So if you can put your ego to one side and this is a really, really interesting dynamic actually because I've I've rarely met someone who's taken that plunge themselves and then brought in the cofounder afterwards and been successful at it more most crucially.

So how did you meet your cofounder?

TW: She was our client.

SM: Oh, yeah!

TW: So you so it's kind of the work connection here. There's a work she really respected. Like, she said, I believed in you as a CEO from the moment I met you. She's like, I saw you, and I want to be led by this person. I've always been a leader. Sometimes I shy away from it. But, actually, even as my sister said to me, you're born to do this. Like, I was born to be a leader.

And she met me and said, I just I trusted you, and I wanted to follow you as a leader. And that's how our relationship started. But it started as friends and then advisory, and then she just and then it kinda worked out the right time of her company, and then she was leaving. And it just all happened, like, in a really perfect way. But we're very different, but it's, like, a very beautiful collaboration. I'm an extrovert. It's funny at parties. We're at, like, at networking events. I'll be there and she'll be like sitting down watching me. It's a funny dynamic.

SM: Proper yin and yang.

TW: Yin and yang. And it and it works beautifully, and I'm I'm not shy to talk about her and how amazing she is.

SM: Amazing. I love that. It's super interesting.

Again, you know, my opening the first question on the cofounder conversation here around, like, that share split is always interesting as well, right, because of that power dynamic.

Even you know, I've met some co cofound, but it's two of them, where even, like, fifty one forty nine, that 1% is that I think psychologically, I've definitely met some cofounders where it's like, that's always in the back of my mind. I know that if we do come up against some sort of disagreement, ultimately, they but I know that you can be creative with that as well.

TW: You have found a consent, so we both have to agree to things. There's consent that is also different. So you've got, like, how many shares you own in the company, but then you've also got, like, voting rights. There's a difference between share being a shareholder and being a director. Director is about they govern the day to day runnings of the business. So if we're making day to day decisions, you both have a vote. You both decide on what happens. However, there there isn't this overarching shareholder position. But if you've got forty nine fifth 51, then there's not much that that can get through without you saying so it's better. But, hey, as soon as you bring on an investor, this whole dynamic changes. It only it only is so important before you bring on investors. As soon you bring on investors, the dynamic - especially VC investors - the dynamic starts to change a lot.

SM: In terms of, like, voting rights?

TW: In terms of any big decisions you make, investors in especially as you grow in your in funding rounds will want to have, decision, have have kind of what what you do, basically. Get their consent before doing something.

SM: So I think it's really worth spending a bit of time talking about what's normal and what isn't because I've had some incredible entrepreneurs who maybe, like, they're further along in their journey or they're now serial entrepreneurs, but they reflect on the show here about lessons learned and passing on that wisdom and advice to to earlier stage founders and some of them talk about stuff like this.

TW: I love talking about this stuff because I have met so many founders who have just got into a lot of trouble and, you know, have parts of their business. And as soon as you go down that road, it's quite hard to reverse it. So there's certain decisions you make, and we'll go into that in a second, about once once you do make the decisions, you can't take it back.

One thing I would say is anyone looking to fundraise, you have to think of your fundraising journey as whatever the the the tone you set from the beginning sets out the rest of the journey. So if you're giving away so much and you're, like, you're easily kind of negotiated out and things like that, the next week we're coming in, it'll just get worse and worse and worse. So the starting point is really important. That's the first thing to say. So if you're doing, like, an angel funding round, angels shouldn't have board seats, okay? They shouldn't have any special powers over the business. They're angel investors. They usually have SEIS in The UK, which is, like, really attractive tax relief. And it means that actually they the if the maximum loss I think if you invest 25 k, it's, like, 8 k or something like that if if the company goes down. So it's a super attractive investment for them which is why they don't usually get a lot of rights.

Now as you go for your funding round seed, still avoid giving board seats because you should only give them really in series a plus. Too many cooks spoil the broth as that is a true saying and and is it is accurate. Without going too technical, there are certain terms that you should just avoid. And these are the legal terms. You just have to know them. And I don't try to, you know, say anything otherwise because it's what will be in your term sheet. So if you in if you have a term sheet and it and it says the investors ask of something called anti dilution rights, in the early stages, you avoid this. Because what it basically means is that investor wants to keep their shareholding throughout investment rounds. This just affects you as a founder. So if you see anti dilution rights, speak to a lawyer, remove it, take it out in the early stages. There's another thing called liquidation preferences. Anything other than a one times nonparticipation, that's how it's written.

SM: What was it after one time?

TW: One times nonparticipating preference. Like, one times nonparticipating preference. Anything other than that is like a massive no go. What it means is if, like, the company doesn't go as planned, that investor gets one times their money back or two times or three times now you you see in the news where you have these amazing founders who built these amazing companies, and then you see how much they take they took home. And it's like the it's so much smaller than anyone would have expected. It's because of this. This is a big reason why it's to participate in preferences.

SM: Wow.

TW: So, yeah, just avoid that if you can.

SM: So break down, like, how can that situation play out if so instead of the the one times non partition - is it positive you can have two times, three times?

TW: You could say that, yeah.

SM: So if it does say anything other than "one times," how does that play out then? Do they get double, triple... ?

TW: It's almost their investment. Like so if if you exit for, 1,000,000 and the investor invested 500,000 and they have two times nonparticipating preference, they get the whole exit proceeds, so they get the whole amount. You end up with zero in in that scenario. There's another one called participating preference. You should avoid that really as well. It's just not market standard. There's some good resources out there that tell you what market standard is. I was saying the links after you can share with the group. But, HSBC have, like, this term sheet tracker where it tells you what market standard is and what isn't. That's great. And and so you can if someone's asking for anti dilution rights, you can say, this is a market standard. I'm gonna proceed.

SM: Nice. Do you know what's so incredibly helpful about that, Trish? It's, like, sometimes it's just especially if, like, you're going through this for the first time and you're feeling a bit out of your depth, and on top of that, you've got this power dynamic dealing with like, there's a lot. You've got all of this which can psychologically make anyone feel like they are the smallest person in the room.

TW: So true.

SM: And so having specific phrasings, I think, is so incredibly helpful and having that to pull out of your back pocket. So literally what you just said there of being able to turn around if you do see anything like that to say this isn't market standard.

TW: That sentence exactly Right. You can even go in even further. And that's why I don't dumb down equal terms because sometimes people rephrase terms and the things they're not. And so if you're speaking to a VC and you do rephrase them, they know that you're not educated on it. And that's how they take advantage. So I do some master classes that I'm facing people. This is what the document is called. This is the terminology. I can explain what it means. You need to use the terminology because it makes you look like you know what you're doing, and people can smell that.

SM: And that as the added advantage is exactly what I was gonna say is, like, one was just kind of, like, not having a default and being able to kind but then, of course, actually, the the professional terminology as well to kinda get a bit more respect

TW: They smell it. I've worked with the best lawyers in the city, and and they and the one thing you should have about lawyers is they are full of themselves because they're smart people, and they get paid a lot of money. And so when you're on the other side of it, they can smell when someone, you know, isn't isn't like that. And the VCs have been around lawyers for so long. They basically like them as well. They they know they know when someone is inexperienced. And so if you start saying things like, this is not a market standard in in accordance with the BVCA, they'll be like, okay. She knows what she's doing. We won't question her. So, Nice.

SM: I'm so thankful you've shared even just that with the listeners. I really hope that that helps. And I think also just wanna underscore for anyone going through a fundraise for the very first time, either in general or with with your business, the level of importance on that on those terms, on your attitude, on everything you do, not to overload, you know, too much undue pressure, but get that right. It really is that first fundraise that really matters because this is awesome, especially if you go on the VC hamster wheel. I mean, you're looking at a timeline of a decade. Right? So whatever you do today really is kinda setting those foundations and the tone, as you said, for the next however many years.

TW: A 100% - and it starts with your term sheet. So the really important thing just to kind of to close on the on the funding point. Your a term sheet, everyone I'm sure everyone has a term sheet is, but if you don't, it's what your your investor will usually provide us. It sets out kind of the the the rules of what the big documents will be. It's like a prequel. Term sheets are not neatly binding, but they accept a few clauses like confidentiality. But they have this binding nature, which means that if you agree to it, you can't then back down. It's like saying to your saying to your teacher, I'm going to do this and you don't. It's like, well, you said you would. And that's the really important thing of a term sheet. People founders usually just sign it because they they again, it's like a, a scarcity mindset where London's not going so well. Everyone's struggling. All your friends' companies are closing. You get one VC who's offering you 500k, and you're like, I can't. And I get founders say to me, I can't negotiate because they'll say they have loads of people to invest in. This mind it's a mindset thing. This mindset is is people get taken advantage of it.

One one of the things I always say to founders when I'm doing these webinars is, you know, we are in a really difficult time, but if you make, like, desperate decisions, your results will just be they'll end up being very bad for you.

SM: Trish, everything that you're saying is music to my ears. I'm so happy that you bring up this point too because I think such an important lesson that I've I've definitely had myself and seen through others in entrepreneurship is that perspective. And I think that when you are under so much pressure, you can't see the wood for the trees. You're conscious of your runway, of your team if you have hired it. There's all of these the list goes on and on and on, right, of the amount of aspects that can put you under that pressure. So exactly to your point, when you've got that offer on the table, take a beat, take a moment, use our conversation now and you listening in as that reminder or try and remember this when you are in that moment. Take a beat, take a step back, get a bit of perspective.

It's like in sale we're gonna talk about sales. Although it is like in sales, what I've also learned the hard way is, like, when you're put under pressure by a salesperson, like, never. One of my worst decisions was doing was folding to, like, a salesperson putting me under pressure. It's like, no. Like, I know tomorrow isn't guaranteed, but, like, tomorrow's probably gonna come around, right? So it's like, you do have twenty four hours. You do have forty. You do have a weekend. Like, take a beat because, again, that perspective is the keyword. That's gonna lay those foundations for so many more years to come. So I love that on the mindset. Any other tips on the mindset side of things? Because, obviously, that is key.

TW: Yeah, so there's there is a a difference I noticed between men and women when it comes to this. One of the big things I would say, I do have this benefit. I've always been very confident naturally. It's I don't know where it comes from. I've always had this benefit. And it does make a difference if you even if you just, like, have, like, an alternate ego, you know? Become confident. That affects. Just just you have to be confident because if you go into these meetings and, you know, someone across the line is about to offer you a million pounds, and they can smell it if you don't have it. I would say that's a big thing. When you you feel founders are not confident in themselves, they don't believe in what they're building.

Hence why I invest my life savings. I believe in this. It's gonna it's not gonna succeed because I'll make sure it happens. As that comes through, definitely. It does come through. So I would say mindset is really important in building a business. Like, train your mindset, get a coach, like, read more books, understand how you can improve and expand it so you come across stronger.

SM: Who knew a chimwag about legal advice would quickly evolve into, like, mindset and confidence? I'm so here for it. I absolutely love that. But it is it is super important. I'm really glad that you mentioned that. The analogy of sharks smelling the blood in the water comes to mind as I'm listening to you there.

TW: Yeah, it's true. It's like being able to to to whiff it out. So, yeah, I love your tip as well even on, like, the alter ego. Like, even if you just for the sake of the pitch, the presentation, going into the meeting, whatever it is, you know, you can kind of turn into a puddle afterwards if you need to, but do what you need to in that moment for that hour, however long it is to bring that confidence to the table. Bring a game.

SM: What's the big difference you see then with the men and women?

TW: Men don't have to have everything perfect. They just do it. Women have to be perfect before they can move forward.

One of my favourite all the time sayings is:

"Ask for forgiveness note permission."

SM: Yeah. Same.

TW: You know, I'm not going to, like, is it okay if I do this? Or can I do this? Oh, I'm so sorry. I didn't realize I could do that less. What can we do about it?

SM: I feel like we have a lot in common, Trish.

TW: A lot in common.

SM: I completely agree. I see that come through all different walks of life as well. All the time. And I think, you know, I think it is also I obviously can't let this topic slide because I feel very passionate about it, but it is important. And I think what's worth also just discussing for a sec is the individual versus the system.

So I would love to get your thoughts on on that difference between from your perspective of, like, seeing the women lack the confidence, but how much of that is themselves versus the system?

TW: Because finance, legal, all of this is so male dominated. I have a different view on that because I guess I came from a place where I shouldn't have succeeded. Everything was against me, but I never thought of it like that. And so whenever I like, I'm around women, I say, we have to believe we belong there. We have to, like, believe that we're already there. And anytime you walk into a room with people, you it's everyone feels like, you know, an intruder. Like, I don't belong here, but we have to believe we should be there. But there is there's a there's a thing that we've ruined that we we struggle with that. And I think it's probably, like, comes from years and years of oppression, right, where we haven't ever felt like we haven't actually legally belonged there. Some cases, like, I don't have to vote and things like that. But I do see a system change, and I think there's, like, a lot of there's funding issues, women lacking funding. Like, if you build a health tech or fintech product and give it to a VC like, a founder that I was speaking to, is building this really cool, like, fintech product around, like, sanitary towels, things like that, being, like, pretty organic, and she's just doing really well, like, thousands and thousands of users. And the and the VC investor was like, oh, it's just not a big enough market.

SM: Fuck off.

TW: And then you're just like, okay.

I use this all the Every woman has the same issue, but it's not a big enough market.

SM: Just on that, I have to say this. I was at South by Southwest last week, and this won't be coming out for a while. So this is I know when it gets released, it's gonna feel like ages ago. But one of the panels that I went along to, to watch was with Debbie Wosskow, who was one of the cofounders of, AllBright. And, incredible advocate for funding women, female founders, and she led the invest in women task force with with the government that's now released. Is it, like, £200,000,000? Into, like, the fund of funds for for female, LPs and and investors to go into women. And on the panel, she she's also now built she's a serial entrepreneur, so she has all these other amazing businesses. And one of the businesses she's working on now is menopause related. And the difference is with this story that you recount, like, this is Debbie Wosskow. Like, she's a fucking household brand name. Like, she's got such an incredible, like, impeccable track record. She has succeeded. I think she said she's got maybe two or three exits under her belt, something like that. She's, like, tried and tested, proven, bulletproof, battle tested founder. Not female founder, founder.

TW: Exactly.

SM: And she got the same comment from an investor. It's like, oh, menopause. It's a bit niche, isn't it? And the thing is, what came to us around I'm talking a lot.

It's getting me all really worked up is what came to mind is I remember I hosted an International Women's Day panel years ago, and I had Deepali Nangia on the panel. She's a female, angel investor. And you know what? This was, like, in 2020. This was just before lockdown, and I still remember to this day. Like, this just goes to show, like, five and and a half years later. She said again with the same similar comments, and she asked the audience. She was like, what about blockchain? What about crypto? What about deep tech, medtech, fintech? Like, the list goes on and on and on. Of all of these fairly niche, like, deep topics. You as like, you go away and you do your research.

You don't go and ask your wife or ask your girlfriend. So, anyway, this this is beyond so much.

TW: But I do I think, though, as women, we it's it's it's not it's not fair. It's not fair. It isn't. It's it's all against us. Every odd is against us. But there's an element of if I walk into a room full of men, I stand out, and there's an advantage

SM: Totally with you.

TW: I think we have and we have to have this mindset of ways understand. We're not going to be able to move forward. It's not fair for us.

SM: I'm so with you.

TW: But one thing I would love to see more is more women supporting women. Like, if a female founder comes to me and they need help, I'm more likely to support them. Because they're a female founder and you want to encourage, but I would love to see more of that in the industry, like, more women supporting women.

SM: I'm 1000% with you. I was at an event where this woman raised her hand in the q and a, and she went on with this narrative, like, because I'm a woman in business and whatever her business was. She's like, I'm often the only woman in the room. And it's like and that's a good thing. And, like, how We have to change the narrative. Then it was a narrative. And it's How helpful is it? And the very last thing I'm gonna say on this is I did an interview a year ago with Emmie Faust of Female Founders Rise

TW: Amazing. Yeah.

SM: And she really sort of lit a bulb in my mind as well when she said, yeah, we know all these stats. We know only 2% of all UK VC goes to female founders, even worse for, obviously, if you come from an ethnic minority. Like, obviously. But her point was, how helpful is that? And I think to your point on women walking into rooms and feeling that imposter syndrome, it's all of these like, yeah. It's one thing to be aware of how dire the the the inequality is, but it's another thing how much we're internalizing that.

TW: This is the big thing. Right?

SM: Yeah. This is what I'm getting to is like if we keep repeating these same stats, how many women are gonna be put off going into business or going and trying to fundraise? What you say you become? A 100%. And so if if I'm always saying, oh, I can't public speak. I can't.

"I can't be a good CEO." I'm not gonna be a good CEO.

I'm not gonna be a good public speaker if we and this is what men are really good at. They just say it even if they're not it.

Whether you think you can or you can't. You're right.

TW: You're right. Yeah, exactly.

SM: Alright. I can waffle on. That is so much longer. This could definitely be the whole podcast, but let's get it back on track. Hopefully, we haven't lost our male listeners. We love you too.

TW: Some of my best best advisors and investors are male. In fact, we have more male investors than female investors. They are incredible. So, of course, they are out there. You have to find them.

SM: And any and I do always hope that, like, if there are any male listeners that you're still with us now because I think you need to kind of, like, get that front row seat into a bit of what this looks like.

Alright. So Let's get back on track. I need to calm down for the sake for the sake of my blood pressure.

TW: No. It's good. It's good. We've gotta have the passion.

SM: I need to get my blood pressure back down. So let's go back to those common founder traps. So I wanted to just sort of summarise what you listed out earlier much earlier.

So you got the IP protection we talked about. Whether it's your idea, your brand assets, your invention, something you've created, get that protected.

TW: Just just to come on to that. So the IP protection. Understand what is it that I need to protect. If you're like, you know, brand is a big part of what they do, but they build a lot innovation in their shoes, in their clothes, like the designs around that. Understand what it is that makes your business valuable.

SM: What I was gonna dig into on that, I know that there's I keep wanting to, like, deep dive into all these different things, was the tension. I'm I'm just acutely aware of early stage founders coming listening to this, is the tension point between protecting you know, getting IP, protecting some sort of asset versus overlooking that in order to get that product market fit first. Because I think to your earlier points on, like, the time and money that would go into seeking that legal advice and the cost, whatever the cost is, you know, like, if if you're cash strapped, there is still cost and time that would go into protecting something. If you don't know, you might you obviously will think it's super valuable, but it's the market that will tell you how valuable it is.

TW: Very good point. And not all IP you need to protect straight away, okay? So it you are right that, you know, if you, for example, you've just created your company name, your company logo, it may not even be one you're going to keep. You may be changed it. You may not be completely sure. Investors usually decide this for you. So often when you're going to raise money, there's certain there's certain, like, things you you can't move forward unless you have it. If, for example, you're building an amazing, you know, bio company where you're finding the cure for cancer, there's certain IP that you you can't you have to have protected others. You can't ever raise money. You're gonna have to look into that. If you're a software company, you don't usually usually need to need to pattern your, software. Doesn't usually, not usually required. Now there'll be loads of IP around other things you're creating. The key thing for you to do, and this isn't so time consuming and expensive, is to make sure you own it. So there's there's three things to break down. So you have, what is my IP? What is it that's valuable? Do I own it? And how do I protect it? Those are the three things that I say to the founders. Understand what it is. Do you own it? How do you ensure you own it? So if you're hiring a bunch of freelancers to do different things in your business, if you're hiring, a developer in Turkey, all on consulting freelance contracts are very big in this industry, you don't own the IP. They do. That's what that's what English law says.

SM: Even if, like, you're the client and you've paid for it and there's been a transaction?

TW: Yeah. Because they've created it. So how do you get around? How do you not get around? How do you change that? You they have to contractually assign it to the company, not to you as a founder. That is often more important at the early stages than some IP protection. Because if you don't own it, then investors say, well, why would I invest in a company you don't own an IP for? So the the typical thing you do is you do IP assignment agreement with those with those people. Sometimes people rely on the clauses of in contracts. If a lawyer hasn't drafted it, if you're not sure, I personally wouldn't ever risk ownership of my IP in my company because I believe we're gonna be very successful.

SM: Of course.

TW: And so I wouldn't risk it. I always do IP assignment agreements with people.

SM: And you know what? You actually have made me remember with my last business, which was marketing consultancy. The agreements that we had drawn up was the client had the IP, and I was always, like, very happy with that because it's like, we're here to help you. Like, it's your business. You're paying us. We're getting that financial gain off the back of it. But, yeah, watch out for it.

Anything else on IP, or should we summarise the other points?

TW: No, all good.

SM: So this IP was the first one you said. There was the the whole kind of share ownership Was the second one, and then we got onto cofounders and stuff, which was super interesting. Third one?

TW: Third one is around, like, the investment process, I'd say, being kind of the top things people gonna get wrong. And I've we've covered a lot of the investment stuff, but just summarize, when you get a term sheet through, the best thing is just to get someone to look at it. Don't rely on, like, doing it yourself. The risk is so high. Legal is all about risk. Some things are in your business are not that risky. It's like, okay. If I haven't trademarked my logo right now, I'm not gonna die. Like, the company's gonna be fine. Some things are more risky. So if you go forward a term sheet and you get 500k investment and you give away with your rights, that is way more riskier than other things. So be careful with, with that.

SM: Trish, thank you so much for coming on the show and sharing such valuable advice and practical tips. As I said, I've definitely been learning and, like, taking mental notes while I'm listening to you as well.

I did wanna touch at least a little bit more on your own entrepreneurial story because it is so fascinating. You already talked about, first of all, you identifying the problem, noting that you had such a such a natural skill when it came to selling business development, which we all need. And then one thing I at least one I mean, I've got so many things I wanna ask you. But at least one thing with your entrepreneurial journey, you did also mention about being a nontechnical founder and, obviously, building a tech sort of startup. You mentioned previously before we started recording around something sort of failing on the technical side or kinda outsourcing that.

How much of that are you okay to share and crucially the key lessons? Because I know so many others who have fallen into the same trap.

TW: Yeah, 100%. Technical side is, like, my weakest point, and that's, like, a fact. There's a lot of training I have to do myself, but it's about finding my cofounder changed the whole game. I tell her this every day.

Like, finding someone who understands tech language and and could communicate with me and the tech team, having that kind of mutual communication is was vital for our business.

SM: So how far into your business journey were you before you brought in your cofounder?

TW: Over a year. So we definitely made mistakes in the beginning. We made mistakes for sure. One of the things is just, you know, hiring engineers and then asking them to do what your vision is. That that didn't work because engineers are doers. They can make things beautiful, but they need someone to do the painting, which they can then make into reality.

So you need that communicator between, and that's because you're a product person.

Also, we kinda use lots of agencies in the beginning and, like, things with ad hoc, and you need someone in house that can learn and iterate and build and speak to customers.

And you probably heard it so many times, but the number one thing is to learn from your customers and to build as little as possible.

Every building decision you make needs to be justified from customer feedback.

And I know this, and I we still haven't got it perfect. I think we've got a lot better than maybe other founders have, but definitely made some mistakes in building what I thought was beautiful.

SM: Everyone falls into that. Everyone. And I think, you know, there's a lot of, like, the first business or the first iteration of the business just kinda being like that first pancake. And I'm like, you gotta itch that scratch. You've gotta get it out the way a lot of the time.

Another interview that does come to mind is I had Thomas Panton come back on the show. He was one of the very first guests that I interviewed two years ago, and his business failed. And so it was a really interesting, like, postmortem, and that was one of the key things. He was and going going deeper on because he's a super smart, incredible, like, shit hot entrepreneur. I think he's amazing. And what he had the self awareness to acknowledge was they didn't know. He was like, deep down inside, we knew that. And it's one of those things where it's like people listening now might be like, yeah, okay, that makes sense. And maybe if you are building a business, you're like, yeah, we're doing that. But, like, are you really are you if you're really, really honest with yourself when you're lying in bed at night, are you actually building it for your customers, or are you doing it for yourself?

TW: A tip I say to founders is a tip that was given to me is, speak to your best customers - defined by revenue, but also by how happy they are and how happy they make you. It's like a relationship you have. Ask them: how do you see me? How do you see SuLe? And what they say to you is what you are, and it's why they came to work with you. Like, you shouldn't be trying to put out to the market, like, what you believe you are and what you want to be because it's all ego. You need to ask your customers: if you could describe me in one sentence, what would you describe SuLe as?

And what they say to you is then everything should be built around that.

So our best customers describe us in this way. This is what we should be running with because they don't care about all those features we built. They care about this core product. And that has really changed things definitely. Because they're all they see the value. They see the actual the real value that they're paying for. In a certain area of your product. So it'd be parts of your product, apart from your business that they don't care about. Because it's not why they came for you. You might care about it, but they don't. And so what they what they will say is a part they do care about and why they pay you for it, and that's what you should be looking at.

SM: One of the most famous examples of that, apologies if a lot of the, like, entrepreneurial geeks already know this, but that's how Slack came about.

So for those of you who didn't just really quickly started off as a video game and the the developers needed a way to communicate amongst each other. And, and so Slack was born. It was born at the back of this video game.

What happened with the tech?

TW: So very a lot of money goes into, like, slow development because they they they didn't have the instructions for how to do it properly. It was just me and the tech team. Too much a lot of time tech is, like, the biggest burn for most companies, and they were just building. It didn't it didn't do what it's supposed to do. It was a lot of time and money, and there was no one to manage that relationship. I couldn't manage. I don't understand it deeply enough. And that was the issue. But we changed it by hiring new people and, bringing a product person.

SM: So it's gonna ask a little bit about the the partner that you do bring in for that. Again, early days, if you're outsourcing that, that's totally normal, especially if you're not technical, which by the way, I think nontechnical founders, they do have that advantage. Just where if you're building a tech product as a non-technical founder, you might feel like you're on the back foot, but the advantage you have is that linked to what we were just saying, if you are technical, you fall even more into that trap of building what you want. "Build it and they will come."

So anyway, so so going back to the partner that you've outsourced it to, how do you vet that process?

Because I know loads of people do, like, the offshoring and, you know, there are some cowboys out there. Your net worth is your network.

TW: It is. You know, it really is referrals. Our best developers come from referrals. Our best people in the company come from in fact, it's all built from referrals. I think that's a start up thing. In corporate, it's such such a different it's a different ballgame. In start ups, you have to you don't have the time and money to outsource all this stuff. You have to be able to vet these people, and you do that through and through with understanding, like, have you worked for them full? What's your experience? Our best people come from that.

SM: Because that's exactly what I'm thinking where it's like, they can have a gorgeous website. They can give you the pitch and all the rest of it. But when it comes down to it, I've just seen that happen many times where it then breaks down.

TW: And there's another point to mention here:

Outside of agencies, but if you were if you're kind of hiring, like, a developer to work for your team, you have to think about it. You give them a time to to prove. If it's not working, you just need to change it. There's there's no, like, shame in making changes to your team if it's just not working out. Like, being really clean up front saying that this is we're gonna try out this process. We did that with most of our people. And most we kept on. But otherwise, this isn't the right match. It's not going to work in the long term. The longer you leave it, the longer you stay in that relationship, we know that we know how it ends. It doesn't end well. And you just release more money in your I think for a lot of people, we didn't we we delay the inevitable. We know it's supposed to happen. We know it has happened. We we can't make that decision.

SM: That's definitely a common theme on this show as well where it's like, I could've, you know, I could've pulled the plug, like, a month sooner.

Just while we're on the product conversation, just really quickly, I just wanted to get your views. Have you heard of vibe coding with AI now?

TW: Yeah. I talked to my product lady about that. She's all over it. It's crazy what we can do. I was just in a coffee meeting just now, and I was, like, telling my colleague about, like, AI and what we can do with it. If you're not thinking about how we use AI, then you're doing something wrong. You're already behind.

One of the best decisions I made when I was getting some outside coaching is having a look at our businesses doing, like, a two week time tracker.

What is everyone in the team working on, and how much time they spend on each of those areas?

Putting that into ChatGPT, analyzing what are the areas each person's working on. You're like 30% is going on this process. That's too much. That's not giving us massive ROI. We need to change that process. You can then do that using AI.

SM: That's an amazing tip.

TW: Do two weeks time tracking using, like, Toggl. Understand what your team's working on. Understand how long it's taken to do certain things.

You can then analyze if that's a good return on investment for you. If it's not, you can change that. And this allowed us to then, like, speed up processes. Okay. We're spending this much time on this. Okay. What can we adopt to make this faster? That's a great Game changer. And this is how you keep, like, the employees low and the output high. Keep things lean.

SM: Yeah, amazing. And it's so interesting as well where I ask you the question based more on the product and talking about engineers and developers and everything else, but, of course, you've got those AI benefits just with any the operations of any business. So that ChapGPT tip you've just given, I think, is, like, applicable to anyone. And there's tools that your dev team can use as well.

TW: I would also be cautious if a developer only uses AI. It's very risky. It's same with anything with AI. The person needs to be smart enough and and experienced enough in that area. AI is a tool to speed you up. You can't fully outsource it.

It's like a battery on a bike speeds you up.

SM: Yeah. Nice analogy.

TW: I just thought of that now, actually.

SM: Nice one.

Trish, I could ask you so many more questions. The time has flown. I've had so much fun. I hope our listeners are picking up on I hope I hope they're getting the third wheel effect. They're just, like, vibing with us just, like, laughing and chatting. Unfortunately, I need to wrap things up.

So, traditional closing question: one tragedy that's taught you an unforgettable lesson?

TW: The wrong cofounder. So before my wonderful cofounder, I had a different cofounder.

SM: Oh!

TW: Yeah. And I guess I knew from the beginning it wasn't a right fit. And what you said earlier is absolutely true. We avoid the nervous fall. I was desperate back then. And and this is why I say from experience, I'm not perfect. I've made loads of mistakes, and I share them openly with people. I was desperate. I made a decision, and I felt it in my gut. I'm a gut person. Some people are head. I'm gut. I felt it in my gut. You felt so much going to sleep on most nights. And you keep it going because you give people the benefit of doubt. You don't want to take it work, and you're at, like, a really vulnerable point in your company. But eventually, you have to make the right decision. So the hard decision, which is often the right one. And I did that, and thankfully, you know, stars aligned, whatever you might call it. And I met my cofounder now, but I knew it was it was and it's it was an absolutely horrible time. It was just horrible. And that's why when I speak to founders and they come to me, like, cofounder break, I'm like, I get it. Totally.

SM: I know how and also, there's the whole legal side, but there's also I know how you're feeling, and it's not a nice thing to go through, for anyone.

Well, I'm really sorry you did go through that. I know how painful that is and, obviously, very happy that you've come out the other end and everything's worked out.

Now with hindsight being a wonderful thing, looking back on that, are there any key lessons you can share?

TW: How someone presents themselves at the beginning is who they are.

You can hope they change. They don't. And you have to be honest with yourself. Who is this person? What have they presented themselves to you as?

Like, that doesn't change. And you can hope and pray and give them benefit of doubt. It usually doesn't make a difference. So kind of ask questions, get the feedback, and there's, like, loads of resources online, like the fifth question you can ask your cofounder. And, you know, sees that compatibility. Did they have the same values, alignments? Like, are they willing to go all in, or do they want it as a side project? Both are okay businesses, but one is a different business to the other. You need to be aligned on what business you're running. Are you taking to the moon, or are you you taking to the sky?

SM: That's really helpful. And I think what I would just add to that is it kind of it's the same thing as the the product development, the product market fit we were talking about before, which is wanting to see something that isn't there. Or even about all of these themes.

Whether you're fundraising, whether you're trying to get product market fit, whether you're looking for a cofounder, we're not even conscious of it.

But we want something so badly, we put those wishes or that vision that we have either of that other person or what the product can look like and not really being fully honest and objective about the situation.

TW: If you're feeling like you're in desperation, don't make the decision. I've been this and I've really learned from this. Like, I don't do that anymore. Even my cofounder knows, like, we will never do things in desperation. We just won't do it. We'll get out of it a different way. Like, if you're feeling desperate in the moment, you probably know it's the wrong decision.

Because action and desperation is the quickest way to make a bad decision in my experience and opinion.

And so now I'm really clear on that. Like, make money, don't take money. You know? These are the kind of rules I adopt in the company. I'm not gonna be going chasing investment until I know how to make it. I'm not gonna be gonna make a decision because I really feel like I need them. If it's right, it works out. If you force something to happen, it's always going to end bad. This is what I've experienced.

SM: Trish, you're so wise. I love it. Thank you so much. This has been amazing. Honestly, this has been even better than I expected.

You've covered not only really practical helpful tips. I think everyone, myself included, has learned something new, has taken something away with them, but also going deeper into these other fascinating topics around confidence, mindset.

I definitely wasn't expecting all these more fun kinda deeper topics, so thank you so much.

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