The Angel Investor: How a £10k mistake led to teaching 500+ angels | Andy Ayim MBE

Strategy & Tragedy: CEO Stories with Steph Melodia is the best business podcast for curious entrepreneurs featured in the UK's Top 20 charts for business shows.

Hosted by Stephanie Melodia, Strategy & Tragedy features candid interviews with entrepreneurs who have scaled - and failed - their businesses - sharing their lessons in entrepreneurship along the way. From Simon Squibb of 'What's Your Dream?' Internet fame to Lottie Whyte of Sunday Times Top 100 Fastest-Growing company, MyoMaster. From exited founders like Nick-Telson Sillett to subject matter experts like Alex Merry in the public speaking arena and Matt Lerner, the GOAT of Growth.

This is one of the best podcasts to listen to if you're looking for educational and inspirational content on Spotify, Apple, Google, Amazon, YouTube or watch the clips on Instagram, LinkedIn, TikTok, or YouTube Shorts

In this week's episode, Stephanie Melodia interviews Andy Ayim MBE, the founder of Angel Investing School, which has trained over 500 angels who have invested $5,000,000 globally, including the Black Angel Group's run out of Google's Black Network, which has invested over 3,500,000.0 in over 30 startups. Andy himself has personally invested in 17 startups, including Farmland, Patch, and Unplugged with 70% led by diverse founders.

In this interview, Steph and Andy discuss:

• From Tottenham to Windsor Castle: Andy's incredible journey from a working-class kid whose dad traveled to neighbouring boroughs just to get him copies of the Financial Times, to receiving an MBE and training 500+ angel investors globally

• The £10K mistake that changed everything: How Andy's costly early investment blunder (putting more money than he could afford into a startup he didn't understand) led him to create Angel Investing School and democratise access to investment education

• Why angel investing is "one of the fastest ways to lose money": Andy reveals the non-financial benefits that matter more than returns, and why understanding your intrinsic "why" is crucial before writing any checks

• The Instagram success secret: How Kevin Systrom's £100K angel investment gave him the runway to pivot from restaurant app "Burbn" to Instagram - and why most startups fail because they don't have time to experiment

• Silicon Valley vs UK: Why American investors take bigger risks on consumer plays while UK investors stick to "predictable B2B software" - and what needs to change for Britain to compete globally

• The personal cost of entrepreneurship: Andy opens up about losing his father suddenly, how grief transformed his approach to life and business, and why he now optimises for family time over rapid growth - plus his 7-year digital journal practice that's like "Google Analytics for his personal life"

Watch on YouTube via the link below or keep reading for the transcript:

SM: I am so curious to hear how this black kid from Tottenham went to Windsor Castle via Silicon Valley. We're gonna cover all of this and more.

But first of all, why angel investing just to kick things off?

AA: Fifteen years ago, I started my first start up. And like a lot of people, you're eager. You have an idea. I was scratching my own itch. I loved UK hip hop and grime music, so my brother and a few friends and I created a business called Mixtape Madness. And this is pre Spotify, pre iTunes. So I'm kinda showing my age here, But, we want to create a central location online where you could consume this music that we loved. And we had no clue about this world of angel and VC investment.

So we had one, situation where we got approached by a senior manager at PwC, the accountancy firm, and they wanted to invest into our business. And all of these defences that just went up. Like, I don't wanna give any equity away from my day. Why would I do that? That's crazy. Not knowing actually is a way in which early stage startups get get funded.

So for us going through that journey - there's so many people that are not aware of this opportunity to get funded and build your business, and what type of businesses are right for gaining funding and going along those journeys.

Then the second experience I had was in 2015. I invested more money than I could afford to lose into a startup I really didn't understand. And I just thought to myself, I need to connect to a network of people that are doing this already so I can learn from them and avoid making these silly mistakes that I've made. That really inspired me to democratise access to learn this education.

SM: Amazing. Andy, very, very well deserved. Like, MBE, we'll hear all about that as well and the awards and accolades. But just with you mentioning having over invested in that first startup and learning from your mistakes, I've heard you say that angel investing is one of the fastest ways to lose money, and actually there's more than just the financial returns that you could possibly make from angel investing.

So what are some of the other benefits for anyone who might be considering dabbling in that space?

AA: The first thing it comes down to is understanding your why. And at an intrinsic level, like, what motivates you to want to support entrepreneurs?

Recently, there's been an opportunity for some people to invest into, OpenAI or something called secondaries. We can get into what that means later. And you can see people getting excited because of all the buzz of AI and, oh, wow, OpenAI or not understanding what's gonna happen to their money. Not understanding the process of investing. Just seeing a brand that they have an affiliation with they would love to get behind. They think they do. Right?

But when you speak to an experienced angel investor, what you notice is there's actually intrinsic motivation. It might be because they love me and fascinating people. It might be because they have deep expertise in a certain industry. Like I've worked twenty years in financial services. So I know a thing or two that can help out a fintech founder, Right? Or it might be certain experiences like go to market strategy because they've worked internationally in The US and across Africa. So these people have edges and they want to use their experience and expertise in new and interesting ways.

Angel investing is one of those few ways we can have your feet close to the fire, advise and support an entrepreneur, and have a front row seat in someone building a business from scratch, often overlapping with a cause or problem in the world that you wanna see solved.

SM: Amazing. And I love hearing you talk about the breathing space that angel investment can provide to those early stage startups. I know that there is this natural tendency on the founder side of things to just, you know, they want the cash. So they wanna stay alive. They need that runway.

Can you expand a little bit more on what you meant by the breathing space that angel investing provides and some successful case studies as to how some startups have successfully pivoted thanks to having that cash injection?

AA: Absolutely. So let's talk about a brand name that everybody knows, Instagram. Right?

Instagram started as an idea called Burbn, restaurant listing app. And on the Master of Scaling podcast, Reid Hoffman interviews the founder of Instagram, Kevin Systrom. And Kevin says in that podcast that he went to Stanford. He doesn't know why, but this angel put £100,000 into his business.

Because of that network access he had in Stanford, he was able to access that capital. He had a conversation with his wife and it's his wife who said double down on the images, which turned that Burbn and pivot into Instagram.

Now, if he doesn't have that angel investment upfront, he doesn't have the runway, therefore the time and the mental capacity to have the space to think about pivoting the business and getting it to where it needs to be.

In the market today, we see that a lot of startups are going through the same process of how can I get, for example, into a path of profitability? For them, that's to pivot. How can I become profitable because it's such a hard fundraising environment? But sadly, some don't have the runway to be able to give them the time to even get there. So that's where angel investment is such a privilege, actually, because it buys you time to experiment and figure out if you can get to product market fit, get to profitability, get to the product that really is sticky with customers and works. So it allows you to afford you that time to get there.

SM: That nicely leads into, identifying gaps in the market as well because especially at those very early stages in business, it's seemingly impossible to differentiate between is that, you know, are we just too ahead of the curve? Is this too innovative? Is this just not, you know, the right time or is there genuinely not not the market need for this?

So I guess linked to the agent investment to extend that runway, what are your thoughts on when to call it a day?

AA: It's a really important question, I think, in this climate because I think no one wants to hear or have the hard conversation around, like, is it time to kill or is it essentially my baby? Is it time to kill this startup? But the honest reality is I think there's a lot of social pressures that we put on ourselves. I've got this title called an entrepreneur or founder. I put everything on social media about what I'm doing and this brand that I'm building. There's a lot of shame and guilt around the the fact that I'm saying that I need to close-up shop.

But I think what I finally need to realise is that actually by closing up shop, it doesn't mean that it wasn't it wasn't a valuable experience. I've learned all of these lessons. I've built this incredible network. I've now gained all of this experience that one day is gonna lead me into my next things.

And there's a multiplier effect to this fast learning journey that you go on when you're starting a business. Mhmm. And I think it's something that I really, honor about The US versus The UK. The UK, we've got this culture where failure is demonized.

Whereas in The US, failure is seen as part of a journey onto success. It's a means to an end, which is the truth for all of us. We've all failed at things. You know, I lost that race. You know, I didn't make it as a footballer. I didn't get that job that I applied to. But it's part of the iterative journey of getting better and continuous improvement.

I think it's something culturally in The UK we need to do a lot better at marketing. Like, it's not only okay to fail, but actually harness the lessons that you take during failure to lead you onto whatever you go into next. This is a career accelerating opportunity regardless when you go into a career, get employed, or start a new business.

SM: I love that you mentioned The US there because I definitely wanna come back to that. Also, I know that you worked in Silicon Valley with the likes of Andreessenn Horowitz, Sequoia Capital and I definitely feel very frustrated with The UK as a player in the global market. So we'll just put a pin in that for a second, come back to that. But just sticking with this piece around, you know, success failure, I guess before you've even reached the point of, okay, like this is we're flogging a dead horse here.

Have you ever had any experiences of the signals that lead up to like even before you say okay it's time to time to shut up shop? Because I just think in the space in which we operate which is early stage tech, it's something that you can't ever cleanly AB test. Right? You you never you just gotta go and try it and test it out.

But I speak to so many founders who are pushing the envelope, who are being innovative. And you know it comes when we look at the marketplace and the gaps that you can spot in the market. If we look at competitors for example, it's it's so nuanced and so difficult to understand whether whether there are few competitors in a space for a reason or whether this is truly a gap in the market. And I guess again just kind of linked to angel investment providing you with that runway. Guess it boils down to how long do you keep going at something until because you could always be at the edge of a breakthrough, right? Like, oh, just another day. Just another we always talk about resilience and just keep going. But it's like another six months, another twelve months. Yeah.

AA: I'm always very thoughtful thinking when you answer questions that I answer in the in the way that shows right. And I want to give an example from the public markets. So with public market trading, right?

I could look at a stock like Apple or Microsoft or any of these companies that I like, like Coca Cola, and I could trade that stock and put something called a stop loss that says that I'm willing to lose no more than £500 and then pull me out of this trade. When you start off as an entrepreneur, you need to have that similar kind of mindset. I'm an independent researcher. I wanna put six months or a certain time frame on what I'm doing. And in that point, if I fail to raise, if I fail to get revenue for this idea, I'm going to put a stop loss and I'm going to take in my learnings.

What went well? What didn't go so well? What can I do differently? And I'm going to make a decision. Am I going to do things differently or is it time to quit?

And actually every six months is healthy to have that kind of retrospective inner work that you're doing yourself to really understand is it worth doubling down on this journey? Am I taking steps in the right direction? Or is this not working out? And if it's not working out, what lessons can I extract? Then take me into the next thing.

So I'm very much of that opinion. I can see you smile as I think it resonates around having the mentality of an independent researcher rather than assume they have the the have an entrepreneur from day one. I am smiling so much because that's an even better answer than I could have hoped for and exactly the reason why I love having you on this show at the moment. I love that. And I think it does link also to what you touched on on that shame and identity piece because your business as a startup founder has become so intrinsically linked to your identity whether it is just online or you know you can't help as much as we say you know your business isn't yourself, you have to devote.

It's like the reality is It's intertwined. It's so intertwined. And so I love with part of what you say there with that independent researcher mindset is it's hypothesis, you know, applying some of that scientific method and even the language and the words that we use around it. This is my time frame. This is and I think it's also, you know, linked to that as well.

What I always wonder about is the distinction between having a really strong vision as an entrepreneur, which is also a non negotiable. Again, versus superimposing that vision onto a market that doesn't necessarily want or isn't ready for what it for what you have to offer them. Do you mind if I double click on what you're saying? Please do. Go for it.

I'm a bit annoying like that. Go for it. No. I love it. I see.

So I love this quote by Jeff Bezos that says, like, you write your vision in ink and your strategy in pencil Because there's many different streams that can lead to the ocean. But I think before that quote, there's something missing. And it's about you doing that inside work around, like, your identity, why you're doing this, and why it matters. So I'm a big believer in distance traveled when speaking to founders. And what I mean by that is I'm that annoying investor that asks you where did you grow up, how many siblings did you have, where did you go to school, who are your friends, what are some pivotal experiences that you went through in life, What's some adversity you overwhelmed?

And I'm really looking for breadcrumbs that helps me to identify why you're well positioned to solve this problem. Oh, I can see in that story that was grit. I can see in that story that was curiosity. I can see in that story that was resilience. I'm not gonna ask you like in an interview, but through peeling back your story like layers of an onion, I really get to understand that this founder is well positioned to solve this problem.

I think not enough angel investors do that and it's sometimes too transactional. I wanna get into this hot deal and I've got four more. If I don't get into this deal x y zed, rather than, actually, I wanna do life work with this person. Hopefully, know them for the next ten, fifteen, twenty years regardless how this turns out. So part of this investment is actually investment into a relationship.

And I think founders themselves don't do that introspective. So then go on journey sometimes prematurely before they've even asked themselves like, who am I? Why am I here? Is this really the right problem for me to solve? And there's a famous book not famous book, but there's a book by an author called David Brooks, and he's a New York Times columnist.

And it's called Second Mountain. And it talks about this concept in life of where you go up your first mountain which is all about yourself. I want to get a promotion, I want to get paid more, I want to work for this big brand. But then you go through this humble descent of getting to the foot of the mountain. It's like where am I?

I'm in the wilderness now. Don't know what I'm going to do next. Some people face this in Covid Like like, I'm spending more so much time at home. I look at what I've missed, all of my hobbies, getting fit. I want more of this lifestyle.

What am I gonna do for work going forward? Right? Then you start ascending the second mountain, which is really foggy, numerous paths to ascend to the peak. I don't know how it's gonna work out, but it's all about being in servitude to something bigger than yourself. It's less about being selfish now.

It's more about serving humanity. And I think to really grasp entrepreneurship at that mission led level, you need to be a second mountain person. It's not really sometimes the right things to do on that first mountain. If anything, sometimes the first mountain experience that you need to share that to get to where you really need to get to. Right?

Mixtape madness was almost on my first mountain. And then, actually, I had a humble descent when I left the business even though I was really doing well. My brother still runs it today. And now, actually, Angel and Vester School is a part of my second mountain. I love that.

And, you know, I wonder whether people are wrongly attracted into entrepreneurship, you know, for the grammarized. For the wrong reasons. And, you know, you listen to, you know, episode zero, which, by the way, listeners, if you haven't already, go back and start the very beginning because that contextualizes the purpose and the mission of of this podcast, which is stripping back that glamorization, the realities of it so that you don't, you know, go into it for those wrong reasons. What I'm also really curious about is part of what you teach at Angel Investing School, do you share wisdom around that, I guess, softer piece of it with getting to know the founder Absolutely. As well as the financials.

It's actually the first class. The first class is all about founder empathy. And we do this exercise. I'm not gonna give away on this podcast. But it's all about the power displacement that often exists when an investor meets a founder.

Yeah. And the founder is meant to feel inferior and the the superior one is the investor. And when we reframe it through that exercise, you realize that it's the reverse. And actually, the founder are lucky and gracious enough to allow us to come along this journey with them. And they're the one taking all the risk, and they're the one creating all of the value.

And actually, we're a cheerleader, supporter, and helper who's staying out of the way because you need to create a business but are available if you need an air to listen or someone to make an introduction or to support you with some expertise that we have. So it really reframes the relationship so that when they're going into their first discussion with founders, they're coming from a very humanistic point. Standpoint. Right? Is one human connected to another around unlocking potential to to solve a world problem?

And I always like to ask this question of, even to myself, let alone the founder of, in ten years, we succeed at scale. What really changes in the world? Mhmm. And I remember one of my portfolio companies, Unplugged, when I asked Hector, the founder, that question. And I didn't ask him that question, actually.

I asked myself that question when I spoke to him. And I thought, he's providing these these digital detox experiences in these cabins that are dotted across the country so you can unplug away from technology, your phone, the laptop. Net net, in ten years of being succeeds at scale, is that positive for the world? Absolutely. Absolutely.

Because we're all too plugged into technology and not enough of us spend time to be still, quiet, and reflect. So to have that experience, I think, should be a b to b experience for all businesses. I think it's something even schools should be considering as well. Amazing. And I guess yeah.

It really resonates. It's that whole power dynamic. I was actually an amazing founder. The, the cofounder of Spoke, the mental health through music app. She was the first person to to say to me about how, you know, money is money.

Like capital is capital. A pound from someone, a pound drop. But if you've got an idea, if you're building a business, like that has a level of uniqueness and specialty to that that doesn't you know compare to you know somebody's money. So I thought that was a really interesting kind of re reframing of it I hadn't come across before. So I mentioned very briefly touched on you know, The UK, The US kinda thing.

You spent some time out in Silicon Valley. I already said, you know, I I definitely feel frustrated with The UK's, you know, tech exports at a global level. I think, obviously, we've got an amazing flourishing economy. We're sat here in London as well. You know, we're in a top amazing city, and yet we open our phones.

And what are the main apps that are on there? We are literally flanked by the two biggest superpowers, The US and China. What do you see? You did touch on this in terms of culture and marketing. But do you have any more thoughts on, you know, what's got in the way of The UK?

I guess, on more of that geographical perspective. What's got in the way of us being more of a global, like, player? I always think about it on three levels. One thing The US UK has got right is around tax relief. So in The UK, we've got a very unique tax relief policy around encouraging early stage investment called the SEIS and EIS scheme.

The Seed Enterprise Investment Scheme and the Enterprise Investment Scheme. Put simply, it means that you can gain tax relief from up to 50% when investing into startups. So if I invest £20,000, I can get up to £10,000 back off my income tax. That's unique to UK, and that allows my money to go further. It's a very, very, important stimulus that we have here.

When I look at The US, there's three levels of difference for me. Talent, culture, and environment. When I look at the environment, it is fostering innovation because of what I mentioned, that American dream, that philosophy of anyone can go from nothing to something. That failure is a part of the success journey. That that that hunger to start new businesses and feel like is a bridge to opportunity.

Right? When I look at the culture, like when you look at a lot of the talent that have come out of The US to become entrepreneurs or become VC investors, Like a lot of the VC investors, I think 50% was the the statistic I read were were ex entrepreneurs, ex operators, have found their empathy because they've been on that journey. The downside sometimes of going on that journey is you have your biases. Oh, when I went through that, this is what I did. Rather than just listening to that person's problem and giving them a present presenting them options or asking the right questions for them to arrive at an answer.

The only thing with that journey is a lot of them come from like a sales background, commercial background. So then they have a high aptitude to taking risks. That's why we see a lot of consumer players there. The Googles, Facebooks, Snapchats because of that that that ability to take greater risk. Where in The UK, a lot of people came from financial services backgrounds, investment banking.

So they used to take in calculated risks of spreadsheets. So therefore, more predictable b to b software feels more comfortable because we want predictability. We can model it in an Excel document. So therefore, b to b across Europe is more prevalent. It's rare for us to have a Spotify or a consumer play.

So we really need to change our perspective in order to change that that risk appetite. The other thing is scaling and this is why I say talent. Scaling across The US is one geography that's very significant and has very deep pockets. Scaling across Europe is very complex, from different jurisdictions, different policies from a legal perspective, different languages, different cultures. So it's not as easy for me to grow to New York to San Francisco as it is for me to go from London to even Estonia, right?

Like that is a very difficult journey to go on to scale across Europe like they can across The US. When we look at even the angel investors, I think US has it was 350,000 angels. Europe has 330,000 across the whole region. So we can see that The US is a lot more mature in early stage investment in creating the ecosystem of universities supplying talent, VCs supplying capital, founders coming out of corporates, out of different experiences. It's galvanized and supported, especially across the West Coast, is still very dominant around San Francisco and California.

I think a third of US deals still happens over on the West Coast. Yeah. It makes complete sense. And, you know, that risk taking appetite is definitely one of the things. We need more we need more dreamers Absolutely.

On this side of the pond. But I hadn't actually considered, as you say, kind of the vast differences between countries within Europe, which geographically is a smaller space, but so much more so many more differences. So they say even just languages, jurisdictions, and all the rest is not the same as state by state. Amazing. And so with some of that, you know, calculated risk in mind nicely segues on to the next question.

I know that you talk about the importance of due diligence on both sides of the fence. So both as an investor to the founder and founder to the investor, do you have any, like, top tips or I guess any red flags for either party to look out for if they're in the midst of a deal at the moment. How long do we have, isn't it, really? So I've told one or two stories to help. So, you know, I was speaking to a founder recently that I was supporting, and, they signed a set of terms with some really bad terms on them.

And they had terms that are it's language that the average person wouldn't understand. Yeah. Anti dilution clauses, which actually really means that as an investor, when that person's invested into that business, regardless who invests in the future, they can never get diluted down. They'll always hold on to that level of equity, which puts off any any sophisticated investor, which means it's hard for that founder to fundraise in the future. Now if I'm that founder, I've signed something that I didn't truly understand and now it's impacting my ability to fundraise going forward.

Terrible. The other founder flag, red flag is, when trans when trying to raise, sometimes you can get desperate. Like, I've been trying to raise for six months or nine months and I haven't had anyone. And finally, I get an offer and I just want to take that offer. You need the cash.

I just need the cash. Right? But the cash from the wrong sources can be detrimental to your business. I've had certain investors that have been very marginal in terms of how much they've invested, but asked for so much admin requirements. You know, I need to do reporting for this source of money that I've got.

I've got questions that I'm asking every week or every month and before you know it that person become an admin burden. I'm spending more time with them than I am on my team. You don't want people like that on your cap table, right? So sometimes for farmers, you need to be courageous to know that I believe in the value of what I'm building. I don't need to give away equity cheaply if I truly believe in the future value of what I'm building.

I'd rather say no to the wrong money than to take money on that becomes a burden that impacts my ability to grow my business in the future. I've seen, sadly, that happen time and time again. And then for investors, you know, in the last two, three years before this year, there's a lot of these rounds where it's like on a Friday you hear about this stuff and on a Monday it's closing. And some people feel anxiety around, oh, I'm gonna miss out on this great deal. That deal just wasn't meant for you and that's okay.

Go through your process. Stay disciplined in your process, your process. I've sometimes spent time for twelve months with a founder just supporting them or staying in contact, being a friend sometimes, being an ear to listen. And then twelve months later, there's an opportunity to invest. Now I wasn't trying to be transactional over those twelve months.

I was just being given to the ecosystem. But sometimes that pays back in terms of because of the experience we've had together, I want you on my cap table. I want someone like you to work with. Now that I've spoken to a lot of frogs, a lot of angels that I'm not so keen on, I now can identify the type of angels that I work along this journey. And it's always great when I get that feedback and I I receive people that come around in, like, twelve months time.

And there's others that I've that I never get to invest in, but I still support. I think that's the way a healthy ecosystem works. It's not just give and take. Like, I'm not giving for a transaction just to get something back, but I'm giving because I truly believe at this core level around this work that we're doing in this ecosystem for entrepreneurs. And so that entrepreneurs can come from anywhere, so that we can solve innovations that that benefits the whole world essentially rather than just a narrow set of people who are coming up with ideas and also benefiting from those ideas being invested in.

I know that as a day as your day job is kinda in investing, but I feel like on a more kind of personal level, it does seem like you do play the long game and you do naturally have that appreciation for longer term thinking. And I think just to to double click to use your term, I like that. On on what you say there, I think it is it's so it it's so refreshing and so important to reiterate that to the founders as well. You know, I think the investors are like, okay. I'm in it for ten years, fifteen years.

You know, I'm I'm aware that it's gonna take that time to get those returns. But for the founders as well, as you say, it's like if you make a misstep, you don't understand a clause, you're really for the long haul as well. You're gonna be working with those people for the next In 10 of the year. Dedicated for businesses still. You know?

And they're gonna be they're gonna be you know, maybe some of your team members come and go, but those investors are gonna be there with you by your side throughout that whole time. So by your side. Right? You never know. Right.

Right. So, you know, I'd say maybe to that is, like, you know, swallow your pride, suck up the embarrassment of asking, like, silly questions, Join the angel investing school to learn and debunk some things. But, you know, if you don't understand something or you're not sure or your gut instincts just, you know, pay attention to those things. Absolutely. Risk looking in you know, looking silly or whatever because it will definitely pay off in the long run.

And and the story I like to always share is, like, my first investment, like I mentioned at the beginning, I invested more than I could afford to lose into an idea that I just didn't understand. And the Asian Investing School is so much more cheaper than making a 10 k investment investing in a start that you just don't understand. Right. Right? And for us, I don't even see my daily job as investing.

I see it as really unlocking access to opportunity and unlocking potential. Mhmm. So our slogan Angel Investing School is really to unlock opportunity around who gives and gets investment because we believe that everyone should be able to become entrepreneurs, but equally everyone should be able to become investors. And it's like this marketplace that we're trying to open up through the knowledge, which is the biggest gap. Now what we've seen over the last twenty years in my lifetime is the advancement of technology at a rapid rate, outstripping business change.

So as a result, it's become easier and easier to lose money in crypto, in public markets, in trading, in investing in equity crowdfunding when I don't understand. We've got a blog right from one of our angels who said that they invested £500 into Citymapper. Citymapper gets acquired and they get £300 back. What happened there? I thought if acquisition happens, I always make money.

That's the education gap that we're plugging. Yeah. It's quite a vast one. We don't learn financial literacy as a lesson in in school. Right?

So who's gonna teach to us unless we have access to an uncle or auntie that can teach us this stuff? Yeah. And that's where we can plug such a significant long tail gap in society. And this is definitely edging into kind of conspiracy territory, but I would love to get your thoughts on the fact that, you know, as I've started learning some of the basics, it really is not as complex as I think the powers to be want new, want it may make it out to be. I think there are even just the basics of personal finance.

The fact that, you know, if you put your money into a savings account that's got point 6% interest and the rate of inflation is, you know, 10%, you're effectively losing. You know, it's just like those basics that I think that really could be taught at secondary school without any problem whatsoever. And I think you talk a lot about language and debunking these terms and these myths. It really isn't that complex. It's not that rocket.

So, you know, there are a lot of basics that could easily be taught on a much, you know, wider wider level. Do you do you have any thoughts on the whole kind of, you know, is there a reason why that stuff is made out to be more complex and opaque than it actually is? I think when you think of, like, systems of privilege and oppression in society, and I'm not gonna get too deep with it even though I've just mentioned something very deep. Like, people that are wealthy in certain positions of power protect their power in certain ways, right? So if I am funding a political party and our party gets into power, guess what?

There's certain things that I'm lobbying for that are gonna gonna make it maybe like Brexit, right? Now when we look at The UK, the 33 wealthiest families represent 50% of the wealth in this country. That's disgusting that concentration of power, right? So so it's in certain people's interests that language is a barrier to access so that actually they can maintain their wealth. Whereas there's other people who are more philanthropic and recognize that actually if we can empower more people, if we can support more people, actually is a greater good for the planet and for society.

And I'm on that side of the fence, right? But it's always going to be like that. And language is actually a barrier to entry, not just in finance, right? But in the medical industry and health care. Also a barrier when you think about the legal industry and law.

Like all of these industries use language as a barrier. And when you translate what these things mean, you learn that it's really simple. Like why didn't they just say that in the first place? Right. Right?

So it's part of the it's part of what we need to break down and change, I think, going forward. Why hang on to these Latin terms like paripasu, just speaking Exactly. And actually explain what it is and say what it is so that a five year old could understand. Yeah. And that's what we're we're trying to get really good at.

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Head to the link in the show notes, 50pros.com, and I really hope this helps you get it right with your next marketing partner. Alright. Let's get back to the show. Alright. One one more question just while we're sticking on the whole kind of angel investing theme, and then I've got a a few other kind of topics to dive into.

But we touched on the importance of due diligence and some of the mistakes. You know, you shared some stories there that highlight, some of the issues for people to look out for. I guess more from your angel investing perspective, you know, personally, taking a bit of a step back, do you see any commonalities across it was, like, 17 startups you've invested in. Obviously, you know many more founders. Do any kind of commonalities keep reoccurring?

Do you spot any patterns, trends that you think, oh, don't you know, shortcut you don't need to keep making these mistakes over and over. What could you share on this podcast with some of our founders? There's a few. One is sometimes you're leaving a job you don't like to start a business and be your own boss when the answer might be I just need to get a job that I like and a team that I love. Right?

If if I'm at a purist state and I'm a problem solver, I shouldn't care whether I'm the entrepreneur or whether I go and get a job as long as this mission aligned in solving that problem of value aligned team. I'm gonna be really unpopular for sharing that, but I I, at my core, feel like as for a purest perspective, that's the truth. Another curse sometimes is knowledge. Sometimes when you know too much, it causes inaction. It causes procrastination procrastination because I know too much.

It's like, oh, if I do that, that's gonna happen. If I do that and you end up not experimenting and trying things out. Sometimes, it also becomes very hard to coach you and support you because you know too much. Oh, yeah. I've been in architecture for fifteen years.

Now I know this problem. But, like, it's quite a niche problem. It's quite small because all these architecture firms are only two or three people or, like, it's hard to coach you and take you along that journey because you just know too much. Another is sometimes young people going along this journey because they've heard of these outlier stories of Mark Zuckerberg in college, and they don't realize that the average age of an entrepreneur is about 43. When actually that young person should reframe their mind sometimes and say, actually, in school, I was paying to learn at university.

Now I've got an opportunity to get paid to learn. Let me go on these journeys with these companies and learn. Right? Because if I spend ten years in an industry, I might spot really interesting problems, form a really interesting network, find a co cofounder that way, and actually go and start a business. Right?

So I think sometimes we gotta play the long game and be more patient because, you know, starting a business or even creating wealth or or being financially free is all like a means to an end. Like, once I attain that thing, I start asking myself the real right question the right questions. Like, what do I really want? Like, what really matters to me? What is the problem that I really wanna solve now that I can afford to and I've got the time and the headspace?

Right? So sometimes we can we can actually shortcut that and say that we don't need the wealth for it to be financially free to think that way I can optimize for that now. And that's where I think a lot about family life. You know, like, why am I gonna wait till I'm retired before I spend meaningful time with my kids and my wife when I can optimize for that today by just going to less events, working from home more, and switching off completely on the evenings and weekends. I can do that now.

It means you're gonna grow slower, Randy. It means that I don't mind. Yeah. I think the human experience is all about shared relationships. I don't think any of us were born to be lonely.

So I'm gonna create spaces and environments where I can share meaningful relationships. And to do that for me, I need to understand your distance traveled and understand your origin story and peel back the onion so that we can connect at a deep level to make it so much more easier when we transact. Oh, yeah. We're doing a deal. Yeah.

Yeah. That's alright, but let's talk about this other stuff. But how's your daughter? You know, when you get that real level of empathy and connection with someone, it just takes the relationship to a different place. And what you'll realize is across any career as an entrepreneur or in in your career, we're all in the relationship building business.

And a social capital opens doors to opportunities and opens doors to how we collaborate and solve problems. So if you get really good at relationship building, again, something for some reason that's not taught in schools, Right? It can open doors to opportunities regardless of your education, regardless of your qualification, regardless of your race or background. I think that's the missing a missing trick now in society, especially in the Western world where we move so quick, and it will take enough time to slow down before before moving fast. Truth bomb after truth bomb with you, Andy.

I absolutely resonate with everything you say there. And I think just to recap a little bit so that we can really kinda clarify that for our listeners, I think one part of it is, you know, move away from that when when I get this x equals y kind of thing is, well, actually, you're putting so much onto a future state, onto something that doesn't exist yet, whether that's starting your own business, your own company, whatever it is as a future state that you're that you're really kind of placing your bets on. You can do that today. You can start thinking about how to start optimizing, prioritize the relationship building, play the long game. Were there any other points that I missed in that kind of I mean, there was there was a lot there was a lot of goodness in there.

Alright. Amazing. Well, as much as we can continue down the investment type kind of path, I'm gonna switch gears a little bit because I'm really interested to to actually get to know you a little bit more and peel away at the layers of the onion. So I'm gonna start off with kind of this next sort of gear change with with a quote. It sucks to lose.

It sucks to fail. It sucks to lose a loved one, but it really sucks if you don't learn from that experience. Do you remember saying that quote, Andy? I have no idea where I said that quote, but I agree and it resonates. I mean, I didn't come in.

Right? So it definitely resonates. Agree with that. Whoever said that is a wise man. Quote was actually one of your quotes.

I was like, yeah. It would be a Stephanie. Well done. I'll take I cannot take the credit for that. That is in fact your your quote, Andy.

Can you guess what you were referring to with that quote? Losing a loved one. Yeah. Definitely losing a loved one. I was referring to the loss of my dad.

And I think when you're buried and feel like you're in a dark place, it can be really challenging, and you have a decision to make. Like, I'm buried and I'm done, or I'm a seed that's buried and I'm about to shoot for the sky and come out of this and and really reach for more. And, it's a really pitfall experience, I think. It's it's one of those second mountain type experiences where, like, you can make a decision. And for me, it was, in some ways, the beauty of death, like, how liberated it was to come off the other side of that and say, I'm gonna be a 100% my most authentic self, gonna grow my hair in this way.

I'm gonna do whatever I want, whether it's get tattoos, have goatee. If I'm gonna express myself fully, you know, yeah. He's talking about investing. No. I'm talking about unlocking potential.

You know, you're talking about this transaction. No. I'm talking about relationships. And there's been a 10 x difference in my career, in my life, in my relationships ever since I kinda let the chains go, and I'm just like, Effie, I'm gonna be Andy now. You know?

And if I look back, like, the biggest mistake I think I made in my life was not backing myself sooner. So what I'm taking from that is the loss of your dad who seemed to be quite an important character. I mean, of course, our parents always are, but it seems like he played such an important role in your life. I read about how he used to go and get you copies of the Feet, the Financial Times in your year. I'm really impressed with his research.

You you couldn't get it in in your own borough, and he went out to, like, the neighboring boroughs to go and get it for you. That's so cute. I just I just love on your side having, like, baby Andy wanting to read the Feet and then your dad making that schlef to, like, get you the newspaper. Yeah. Please.

Yeah. So I I I grew up in Tottenham and, this local corner shop, my dad used to go there and order bespoke for our family, and this is pre Internet days where you couldn't order this kind of stuff, the weekly Feet. And, you know, they assume people in Tottenham obviously don't read The Economist and the Feet, understandably so. So we used to get this in. We used to flicker open my brothers and I as teenagers.

They would read about read about these experiences like the Chelsea Flower Show or, you know, like, the freeze off art art show or or middle class lifestyle. And then you read about these CEOs, and then you read about these stocks and shares. At the beginning, you don't understand about 80% of it. But then what I slowly started realizing is, like, I was just really curious and interested in business and how businesses fit together and how businesses can be a force for good. And what it taught me actually was that reading and traveling are both correlated in that both of them can really open up your mind and lead you to to new ways of thinking.

Whether reading a book, a magazine, a newspaper, or literally going on a plane from one location to another and backpacking and traveling for me when I was younger was a similar type of experience. Again, that just opening myself up to a new culture and realizing where I start off in life doesn't at all determine where I end up in life, and I've got more agency than I thought I did on on my journey. Yeah. And so coming back back to your dad, so, like, was your how was your relation I mean, I'm guessing that the fact that he made that effort for you, even just that, you know, the the act of service there, that love language of going off and getting the Feet, like, how was your relationship? I'm guessing it was quite a loving We're both my parents actually really loving relationship.

Like, they did so much to to like, if I think about my parents' journey, right, they they migrated from Ghana, a land and a life that they knew very well for, a big risk coming to The UK, a land they don't know well, have no social connections, but in the hope of providing a better life for their for their offspring and for their children. So the level of sacrifice that they were willing to go through to allow us to to have this life today is is unbelievable, almost unfathomable. And I feel guilty to a degree about that sometimes because I'm here talking about I wanna do what I love, you know, with value line people, with service of something that's important. And they made that sacrifice. And they made that sacrifice.

Them, they probably felt like I couldn't afford not to. I'll take whatever job I had to do to provide so that you look and go to school and have a home over your head. I know it might not be in the best borough place in London, but we're in London. And what you notice at a young age or what I would notice is that, you know, I had, like, cousins back in in Ghana, high potential just like me, but low access to opportunity. Mhmm.

And I inherited this privilege. I didn't choose to be born in London, but I inherited this privilege. And because of that, I just had a high potential and high access to opportunity, and I wasn't gonna waste it. So I'm coming full circle back to the beginning of of this chapter, at least, anyway. So you had these really supportive parents.

You had this loving father, and I read that it was a really sudden, tragic event that happened. You know, you weren't expecting it when you lost your father, sadly. So I wanna come back to the answer to the first question around that liberation and the beauty of death, and it all sounds really positive. I it's like the most positive interpret or most positive reaction. I'm sure it's taken you a while, obviously, after the pain and everything.

But I guess how how did you kind of reach that point? Because it just it must have been so, you know, so heartbreaking and that and you've taken such good from that. Yeah. So I think starting at the end and working my way back, life is fragile, and none of us know how long we're gonna be here. So we've got choice and an opportunity with the privilege that we have in in London, for example, to decide how we wanna spend that time.

You can spend it on your laptop. You can spend it with family. You can spend it working all the time. It's your choice, and I'm not judging anyone. Everyone's got their own agency and their own choice there.

And for me, at the time, it was very difficult, but at at the same time, I just come off the back of a a backpacking experience with my younger brother, actually, and a friend across East Africa. So I've gone through this almost, like, self discovery process over the last thirty days, really processing a lot of my thoughts and spending time with myself and a small number of people in this incredible experience camping across East Africa in the wilderness with wildlife. So a part of me had been on this beautiful journey that I get back to UK, and I I learn of this this this, this tragic, event and probably needed counseling support back then, didn't recognize it like a lot of people do when they experience, like, death. Worked my way out. I need to get a drop.

I need to be busy. I need to get on with something. And and the lady who's now my wife was was actually that therapist for me, that support network. At the time, she was, like, one of my closest, if not best friends, and it's no surprise that she's now my wife. So I cannot help but see beauty out of this situation.

And, you know, I heard someone describe me the other day as, like, a a black rose growing out of a concrete jungle. Like, how the hell are you growing out of this? I'm familiar with roses, but I've never seen one that's black. And I think people look at me in that way, like, a little bit weird, but I resonate on a values or a deep level of what this person shares. Yeah.

You know? Yeah. Amazing. Well, I'm I guess, more, you know, selfishly is I'm really I think about this a lot, actually. I'm really curious to know if it's possible for us to shortcut that path to that deep realization, that deep appreciation for the fact that life is fragile, as you say, our days are numbered without having to go through such a tragic experience.

Because it is a story that you hear from someone who has lost a loved one, lost a parent, and, you know, touched with, like, all of my loved ones are still are still around. So I haven't had to go through that. But but at the same time, I'm I'm very selfishly wanting that that deeper because as much as I mentally get it, you know, I understand what you're saying. I I get it, but I don't at that really deepest I appreciate you sharing it in the way as well. Yeah.

So, you know, I do want it's like as much as I listen to other people's stories and I think of myself as a very empathetic person and I have very close friends who have gone through similar experiences. And it's completely rocked their world, and they've come out of it transformed. And as as as painful as it's been for them, they now you know, one of them, for example, they just they wanna see the world, and they're just like, you know, we could you know, we we don't have the next few years, like, guaranteed. And they are just purely embracing, like, wanderlust. And they're going around and seeing and it was a huge shift for them.

And I don't have that as much as I'm saying is sad, but I want I want to have that deeper appreciation. Yeah. But I don't think it has to be something big and sudden that happens. I think it can happen iteratively and slowly. And I think it's actually centered around, the quality of the time that we spend with ourselves and in our thoughts.

You know, for some people, that's on a swim. Some people, that's going for a walk. For some people, that is traveling and being in a completely different environment to extract myself from my day to day so that I can spend time getting to know myself. But I think not enough of us spend enough time thinking about thinking and spending time getting to know who we are, and I mean at the different levels. Right?

Because my beliefs ultimately shapes my mindset and my perspective and being so positive and such a nice guy and whatever. And that that then influences my behaviors. Because of that mindset, I'm gonna behave and conduct myself in this way. And then my behaviors lead to my impact, like, or lack of impact. Right?

So it's all very connected, but you don't really realize it and saw that golden thread unless you spend enough time with yourself. You know? And I I keep a tracker, a journal, a digital one because I'm a bit of a geek, and it's like the Google Analytics of my own personal life. And I use it in I do it in Notion, and I've been keeping it for about seven years. Wow.

And every six months, I review it and connect the dots around what brings me energy, what drains my energy, what I wanna double down on, what I wanna you know? And it's such an insightful view into, like, myself. And one day, hopefully, my kids will read it and think, oh, my dad was a bit weird. I was very different. I didn't know this and that and that.

They also read a lot about themselves and what I really thought about certain situations. But it's such a beautiful therapeutic DIY therapy process for me to to do that on a consistent basis. Mhmm. And it's one of the small gifts to to the world whether I can teach or share that with people because, yay, it allows you to to create a mechanism, a habit forming mechanism to spend intentional time with yourself and track where your curiosity is leading you in the world. So very practically just on that, do you journal daily, weekly?

How frequently do you keep up with that? So now I think because I'm in such flow state, it's not a time thing. It could be after this podcast. You know, I had a a formative conversation this morning that I'm gonna journal on my train home, but I could also not journal for two days and be at peace of that. Yeah.

Nice. You know? So for me, it's just going with the ebbs and flows because I've already formed the habit. Yeah. You know?

It's not a habit that can easily be broken now for me. It's so refreshing to hear you say that because I don't know whether it's just kind of who I'm surrounded with and my kind of world or I just pressure of Right. The pressure. Like, daily, weekly, building a habit. I'm I'm really into that space of, like, building a habit.

I'm putting myself under that pressure to to be consistent. But I am very I love what you say there. That definitely feels much more natural Yeah. To me at least to go with the ebbs and flows. Sometimes you write more, sometimes you write less.

But I guess the important thing is as long as you're logging that on Yeah. Some, you know And what you reference is very important. It's between the heart and the head. A lot of people like thinking too much and overthink too much. Like, I wanna have this structure, and I wanna do these steps, and I wanna but really the truth is they don't feel enough.

How do I feel? What do I feel is the right thing to do? Actually, check-in with yourself. You're not in tune with your feelings, you have no idea how you feel or you ignore and suppress how you feel, and you just tap into how you think. But that's the logical part of you.

That's the part of the brain that you're always activating for work. Right? When I actually, like I look up my Mondays, for example. Mondays, I have no external meetings now, and I time block. But I don't put, like, I'm gonna do this strategy and this planning.

I just kinda go over the flow on the Monday. I might do a bit of planning, might go for a walk. Got a one year old child. He's trying to walk. I'm gonna spend some time helping him walk.

I find it quite funny as well. That's a Monday for me. Yeah. Nice. And you know, you got these tasks and they yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The task may got done.

They may not get done. You're not gonna get that moment back when he's trying to walk, though. You know? So I I try not to bias my time around the things that feel right Yeah. Whether it's the things that I think are right.

Yeah. I love that. And you made me think of there was I can't remember the exact number, but, apparently, like, we only know even just words, you know, like, again, going back to, you know, terminologies with finance, even terminologies with emotions as well. Apparently, we only know, I don't know, something like twenty, thirty, like, words to describe emotions when it's the tip of the iceberg. So even just linguistically, have the words, let alone I'm guilty of that too sometimes, like, my communications because I'm like, I don't even know how to express what I'm feeling.

You know? But sometimes I'm trying to get better at you. It's just we're either just like, yeah. Good. Great.

I'm feeling good or just like, no. I'm not great. Like, it's fine. It's a good tool actually called the the feeling wheel. Right.

If you've ever seen it already, like, a number of, like, words just to express how you feel is such a good aid. Yeah. When someone just needs a reminder or just have a poster or something up just to pick a word that we Just as a self awareness exercise. Right? To be like, how and to your point, you know, how am I actually feeling here?

Like, checking in checking in with myself. And it does tie into diversity as well. You know, it's all interconnected because it's not just the diversity of the head and the heart, but it is the different personalities we bring to the table. It's the masculine and the feminine energy. Absolutely.

The tip the typically, you know, stereotypically, like, traits of one or the other. Mhmm. Because, yeah, again, with myself, I think I bring a lot of that empathy, emotion, like, the softer, typically feminine traits to the table. But in the business world, it's, I don't think that we're there yet where they're equally valued as you know, if I come in and talk numbers and walk my way through a spreadsheet or whatever, I don't think that that would be as valued as So interesting. Talking about how I'm feeling.

That was expected of you. Right. Right. So moving on to our next chapter and kinda a little bit of a of a link here is, the NBA, which I mentioned. Sorry.

MBE is part of Equally, I would love to play in rugby. Never met the the height restriction. So MBAMBE. What do you think your dad would have said if he was still around for you to have been awarded the MBE? Wow.

This is a question, isn't it? I'm I'm pretty confident when I look at a lot of his fam like, his sisters and brothers and and and his family that, for them, I think it was a feedback loop to say, oh, that's why they went to The UK. Look at what has become of their their family Like, validating. Their it it does. It it provides that feedback to you to say they made something of the opportunity they were afforded, and we're so grateful to have supported that move.

You know? So there's a sense of pride for me because of that. And then I think role modeling is so important. You know? I think sometimes if you can't see it, you can't be it.

So, like, I'm I'm going to my secondary school next week for prize giving night, give out certificates to a level and GCSE students. It's not gonna be on socials or nothing, but gives me ten minutes to to share with them some of what I've been through on my journey and my distance traveled. And hopefully, it's so seeds for them to go in and think there's space for me in this world of technology and investing, and I wonder what else I could become. Amazing. I'm so pleased for you, Andy.

Honestly, it just I can the emotion thing, you know, I can feel, like, my heart swelling hearing these stories and hearing this. Like, it it feels like your heart gets bigger. It's it's so, so lovely. It's the gift of this platform that you've created, you know, that's how we get these stories out. Yeah.

I'm also grateful that, you know, new people are gonna hear these stories thanks to you bringing so many interesting but diverse and varied conversations to your platform. Exactly. Exactly. Thank you for that, Andy. It's amazing.

We're all kind of aware of the, again, without getting too, like, controversial or too deep about it, but I know that you you did think twice about accepting the MBE given the history with the royal family, the royal institution, and everything. Why why did you ultimately decide to accept the award? So when I think about the colonial history of of The UK, it's problematic. You know, I come from Ghana who gained independence in 1957 from colonial masters who were essentially terrorists who took over the land who were British. I'm now in Britain, and Britain has afforded me opportunity.

If I felt so against it, I wouldn't wanna be in Britain at all. But the truth is, and I think this comes from my Christian upbringing, is that I try to leave from a place of love, and I can't hold that weight on me to say, you know, now every white person that I interact with for the rest of my life is just like those white people a thousand years ago, and I don't wanna be held by a certain stick based on experience you've had with another man or black person or person from Tottenham because I'm Andy. It's uniquely made up. And the second thing is, like, when I think of the about the storied history of Tottenham, like, two years before I was born, there was an incident called a Broadwater Farm riots, and that's where I was born into Broadwater Farm. And, sadly, like a police officer, I'd got beheaded.

So the relationship with the state and with the police from a young age was very tense. And all the stories you would hear coming out of an area like Tottenham is unemployment, poverty, crime. So if I've got an opportunity to shape a different narrative, I'm gonna take that opportunity. Right? And I've never been someone to swim along, like, with the tides.

Like, I'm gonna take the opportunity because who knows which other young Andys and Stephanie's might actually hear that, and that might be the thing that gets them onto the right track or gets them into that next opportunity. I'm all for that, and I'm someone that I don't care about the scale of a million. No. That what that one person was touched, yep. That's why I did it for.

That's why it was well worth my time. That's so sweet. I love that. I think yeah. It's definitely I totally agree with that line of thinking.

And I'm, yeah, very again, it warmed my heart to see not only you, but, I mean, you mentioned, you know, some of your friends and other, like, people of color in the space who all got awarded at the same time. It's just, it's so needed to, again, have that representation as you touch on. You also touched on the fact that you grew up with, you know, Christianity. And I remember you hearing you talk about, you know, belief in, you know, higher power and, you know, how does that because I know the MB, you have no idea who nominated you. You have no idea how that happened.

And I know you don't wanna dig into it too much either because, you know, I'd I'd be the same. I'd wanna maintain some of that, like, intrigue. But I'd love to just hear a little bit I know we've been talking a lot and I've got a few more questions, but I would just I'm really curious to hear more about your stance on what that higher power is for you and a bit more about your your beliefs with that. Yeah. So I I I believe in Jesus Christ, and I love it because the Bible for me is like a basic instructions before the before life ends.

It's like an acronym. And when I think about, like, the life of Jesus, I'm ultimately looking at it's really weird, but, like, the the ultimate role model who I can never become has taught me so much in terms of guidelines and boundaries around living a meaningful life. Because when I look at the New Testament, it's a story, almost like a love story between what we call the church, which is community, and and Jesus, and him dying and giving away his life so that we can live. And when I go and double click deeper into that, what we're really saying is this is this person throughout his whole life is is spending time at the fringes of society. So when I look at my mission today about unlocking opportunity, that's my version, very micro scale, not to be compared, around how I can spend time with the fringes of society and provide access.

And everyone's gonna have a different stance to that. For someone, it's like their cause on on what they can do for the planet and deforestation. For another person, it's the homeless. For me, it's unlocking opportunity for people from working class backgrounds. Mhmm.

I'm just real passionate about that. I love to own a community center for for for entrepreneurs in different local boroughs across The UK. Like, that's just the thing that gets me going, and I have deep empathy for that cause because that's where I came from. Mhmm. Right?

So I see so many parallels, I guess, with a lot of my faith base and and some of the humility of the journey that I've been on. And so what do you apply specifically from your faith on that broader level to that particular instance of being awarded a member of the British Empire? That's a really interesting question. Like, one of the greatest, commandments in the bible is around loving your neighbor. Loving your neighbor at its core is an expression of love from one person to another, which is actually at the core of how to build a relationship with someone that's meaningful.

So I've harped on in this podcast about building meaningful relationships. What the MBE does is two things, actually. One is that it's actually a feedback loop in retrospect. You're awarding me this recognition, which I appreciate. But for something that I've done in the past, it's not actually recognizing what I'm doing now, what I'm gonna do in the future.

But the second thing that's important of that is that it provides a level of credibility and trust around this character. And sometimes that is, unassumed credibility because someone with MB can still do dodgy shit. If I'm sorry. Pardon me. It's okay.

But it doesn't assume that. So someone does see you as someone who's trustworthy, and I think that's important with someone like myself that's teaching some, people about financial literacy, about education, right, to trust where the source of this information is coming from and this institution is really important. So to be able to do that is is so important for me. I love that. And so my penultimate question here is Oh, you're gonna make me sad.

Penultimate. I know. Well, listeners, if you're loving this conversation and you haven't already hit the subscribe button, which I'm gonna give you a second to do now, get involved on social media. If you want a special part two bumper issue with Andy, then leave a comment that, yeah, sadly, we are coming towards towards the end. I I'm very sad about this as well.

Don't worry. But, yeah, penultimate question is given all of your successes, all your accolades, the MBE, the business, the money that has been invested, Angel invested as a result of your efforts, even Andy AM MBE has suffered imposter syndrome. Absolutely. So let's just take a second to let that, like, sit in with how so for any listeners who maybe sound or look like you, again, that representation piece, Can you share a little bit more about that and, you know, the tips on how you've overcome imposter syndrome, even somebody like you? Yeah.

So, I'm gonna go a bit bendy with this answer, but, I've studied some forest and philosophy, Taoism, and and they talk about this concept of something called Wu Wei, which is the art of, action or inaction. And regardless if you take action or inaction, it's actually an action regardless. So I'll give you an example of imposter syndrome in the past. I've seen a job opportunity, and a lot of women do this apparently, and I've seen what's needed for that job, and I haven't applied. Yeah.

That inaction is an action because it gives someone else an opportunity to get a job, and it means I can I it's impossible for me to get that role because I didn't even throw my hat in the ring? When I say that to you, it sounds a bit crazy. Why wouldn't I at least throw my hat in the ring? There might be a 1% chance that I'd get at least if I apply. But sometimes, when we're inside our inner thoughts, we can think, like, what's worth our time based on what we're reading or certain situations that we're in.

You know? Fortunately, I learned to overcome imposter syndrome by always asking myself, what's the worst that can happen? With an angel investment, I might lose one x my money. The upside is limitless. With starting a new business, like when I joined Backstage Capital and launched their accelerated program, I hadn't done that in the past.

It didn't say that with my CV. I'm a firm believer that you can do great things when doing it for the first time, and I've done that three or four times now. So now I just believe it. Right? And now I've got to a sense of confidence in who I am that I believe that my my skill set is my safety net.

So my worst case scenario isn't too bad, and I'm very privileged because of that because I really understand my skill set. So I can always return to it if I'm ever in a uncomfortable situation. Now sometimes when I do get imposter syndrome, I've learned how it feels like inside. Chest might get hot, might feel a bit tight, might feel a bit anxious about doing a certain action. And as soon as I recognize that, I can then control the reaction.

Alright, Andy. Breathe. Go for a walk. Take time. Reflect on this opportunity.

Speak to one or two trusted people in my network, like some of my friends like Tim and Shen, and then come back and have a think about whether I wanna do this thing or not Mhmm. Rather than just talk my way out of an opportunity. And often, I think because of the the great circle of friends and people I do have around me Mhmm. It leads me into the right decision even if that decision is not to go for a certain opportunity. That's okay.

At least I bounced off people. I wasn't scared Mhmm. To go for that thing now. Your answers to my very varying questions really demonstrate the the the genuine belief that you have in some of those core values that keep reoccurring in different ways. So the relationship building, you know, having that strong network and, you know, checking in with yourself, knowing your having that self awareness, like, all these things keep coming up and apply to all these different facets of, I guess, how you approach life in general, which I think is amazing.

I just try and lean into the truth, but I mean, that's if anyone wants to know what's his secret weapon, why did he talk like this, I generally try and lean into real stories, real experiences, and real feelings that I've been through Yeah. Because that's the unique thing that I can add when having these conversations. Well, it's demonstrated through the consistency. I guess that's the point because it all goes back to that truth, and it all goes back to that core set of values. Your answers, again, to these very different questions are gonna be different flavors of the same thing because it's all the truth.

Right? And I I recognize that. And I think you you mentioned an important word there. And when I talked about the inner work and introspection, 80% of people I speak to, if I ask them, like, what's two or three of your your core values? I have no idea.

What business do you work for? Are this business? What's their mission? Are this their mission? What's their values?

Are this their values? What are yours? What are yours? It's such a shame. Yeah.

You know? And if you feel, obviously, feel a bit embarrassed when you when you start saying it like that, but it's true. Yeah. Like, oh, where do I start with the inner work? You start with things like that.

Because who even asks that? Right? You know, in daily conversation, how many times do you get asked what are your values? That's the thing. Whether it's from other people or yourself, you know, even less, I would say, even less, when you check-in with yourself on that.

So I did say it was my pronouncement question, but I feel like these these are all just, like, sub sub questions within the same kind of one because I can't I can't help myself. But just on the imposter syndrome thing, I'm curious. So as a result of your, you know, your refined skill set and experiences over the years, does it rear its head less for you, the imposter syndrome? No. But I've learned how to manage it more.

Wow. Okay. That's surprising. Wow. So I I wouldn't say it doesn't come up, that feeling.

Yeah. But I've learned how to manage it more, and I've got more references to my lived experience that helps me overcome it even before having a conversation with friends or or people around me. I really was not expecting you to answer that. Yeah. Yeah.

I wanna be honest because I feel like these are the things that connect us even as people. Yeah. The fact that I'm not superhuman, that I am still fragile, I still make mistakes, trying to improve on my communication skills, do face imposter syndrome. I do have down days. It's not always great.

I'm not where I wanna be in life sometimes. My fitness right now, I'm off this I actually I actually am at peace with the imperfection. Yeah. You know, it gives me more to strive for. It gives me more to do.

And and it and it helps me connect with a lot of the listeners because a lot of them can relate to my broken side as well. Yeah. All of the shiny things that you hear. We'll have that. And you just make me think as well, you know, in therapy where it's not about, you know, sometimes it isn't about overcome or completely eradicating those flaws or those sides to yourself that you'd rather not have.

It is all part of the package as you you know, whether it's anxiety, depression, imposter whatever whatever it is, it's it's about managing it. As you say, it's about co living with those other parts of you. That's right. That's right. Right?

Because it's like you can't just, like, wave a magic wand and be a perfect person that's Yeah. Always got a positive outlook because there are external factors you can't control. Life happens. It's just completely unrealistic, basically. Okay.

So we are now nearing the last question. So we do have the closing tradition on this podcast to always ask the same question, and it relates to the name of the show, which is Strategy and Tragedy. Part of the belief again, if you haven't really listened to the very first episode zero, that contextualizes a lot more about the show. But one of the ideas is that often the best lessons can come from the biggest mistakes. So what's one tragedy that's happened that's stuck with you that's taught you an unforgettable lesson?

You know what's so funny is that I obviously listen to episodes. I listen to Graham's, for example, and you'd think I would have been proactive in thinking of an example. It's good. It's even better. It's more raw.

It's more real. So one that many people may not know is, when I had my daughter, who's now six and she was nearing one, I took the crazy risk of, like, leaving full time employment. I left a high growth startup called WorldFirst, which got acquired by Ad Financial, and I joined a startup accelerator called an Entrepreneur First. But the context, right, is I've just got a one year old baby. I'm living out of my my family home, that is in my parents, where where I grew up.

I'm not in a comfortable state, and I've just sacrificed my income to go and start a business. On paper, it's a bit crazy, and it doesn't make sense. I go through that experience. I learn a lot about myself and how I need to build deep relations with people over a long period of time. So, therefore, it's not right for me even though it might be right for someone else, and that's okay.

And through that experience, I invite Arlene Hamilton to come to The UK, and I start getting her plugged into the ecosystem here. She's the founder of Backstage Capital, and she ends up making me a job offer to join her on that journey. If I don't go through that experience of joining this accelerator, failing, not finding the cofounder and get off to that business, I never get to backstage. So when you go through experiences often in life that are tragedies, in the moment, it feels awful, and it probably is. But it's hard to see actually how you're gonna connect the dots looking forward.

It's a lot easier to see when you connect the dots looking back. I love that. I'm just taking kind of a moment there to, you know the lesson there, I think, is the perspective is zooming back out. It might feel awful now in the moment, but you never know. It might lead you to something else, something greater.

It's all part and part of the path that we take. Andy, thank you so, so much for coming on the show. I feel so spoiled. It's been such a luxury to sit down with you. I could definitely talk for many, many more hours, but we'll have to leave it there.

I'm very, very grateful for you coming on the show. So thank you once again. My pleasure. Thanks for having me. And thank you so much for listening.

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