"Going VIRAL transformed my business!" Kim Innes, Founder & CEO of Humble Crumble

Strategy & Tragedy: CEO Stories with Steph Melodia is the best business podcast for curious entrepreneurs featured in the UK's Top 20 charts for business shows.

Hosted by Stephanie Melodia, Strategy & Tragedy features candid interviews with entrepreneurs who have scaled - and failed - their businesses - sharing their lessons in entrepreneurship along the way. From Nick Telson-Sillett who achieved financial freedom after selling DesignMyNight (on The Wildest Exit Day in History™) to Emmie Faust, the founder of Female Founders Rise. From Simon Squibb of "what's your dream?" internet fame to Simon Alexander Ong, the life coach of the year.

This is one of the best podcasts to listen to if you're looking for educational and inspirational content on Spotify, Apple, Google, Amazon, YouTube or watch the clips on Instagram, LinkedIn, TikTok, or YouTube Shorts

In this episode, Stephanie Melodia interviews Kim Innes, the Founder & CEO of Humble Crumble - the country's most loved dessert that went viral! She is also a Forbes 30 under 30 winner of the Everywoman Scale Up award, and one of NatWest x Telegraph’s Top 100 Female Entrepreneurs to Watch.

Watch on YouTube via the link below or keep reading for the transcript:

SM: We need to kick off the conversation with going viral. What happened?

KI: What went viral was one of our specials, our monthly specials, which was a pumpkin crumble where the outside of the pumpkin, a miniature pumpkin, was the cup, and the inside was the fruit. So we used it was like a zero waste crumble and Time Out posted that on their Instagram for with a million followers. And almost immediately, I had a queue in Spitalfields Market in an otherwise dead market because it was the first, just after the first lockdown. So London was pretty much deserted.

SM: How long had you been going with Humble Crumble at this point, by the way?

KI: I'd started the business in May 2018, but I never I didn't really get a permanent spot anywhere. It was really difficult for me to get a spot in London because the food markets are quite saturated. And also markets don't really want to take a punt on someone unless they have a proven concept, so it's kind of like such a chicken and egg situation and, actually, Spitalfields was my first permanent market. I decided I was gonna go hard or go home, try and really test the product, and I opened there, three days before the first lockdown.

SM: So we are definitely gonna talk about that as well! But what was it with Spitalfields that made them take that bet on you? KI: I think I had had some previous markets where I went to and had success. So I had actually done a two month stint at the South Park Centre along, the river at Christmas. So I'd I'd had that concept sort of proven, and I had numbers to go off and show that Gray is successful. And I also had, like, a social media strategy. I'd hired a friend of mine to do stuff, so there was consistency there. Amazing. And, actually, I think it kind of just, like, styles aligned where, I think the social media person of of Spitalfields had seen our post and was talking about it to the team, and then I'd applied to go then.

SM: Wow. So it was like they were it was like on their minds as well. I'm obsessed with the whole topic of hacking luck, by the way, and how much we can, like, strategise and stack the odds in our favor. So as much as luck is always a factor, you've still you you still kinda put yourself out there to those opportunities. You still do what you can to stack those odds in your favor.

So you sort of gather these almost like mini case studies with these shorter stints coupled with social media. You've got a bit of that luck in there as well for Spitalfields to take that bet on you.

KI: And then and then unlucky. At the end of the day, like, no matter what I planned, a pandemic was gonna come and no one would have predicted.

SM: Right. So you remember it was literally three days before the first lockdown?

KI: Yeah. So my Spitalfields was my first, like, seven day a week, one year contract. Like, let's go hard with this. And then I had just shut three days later, which, was was obviously terrifying, but it was, you know, terrifying for many reasons. And I went home and I decided to, like, shut the business, obviously, and I restructured in a sense that I can't really I don't think I can really sit on my hands. Right.

Like and I was looking at supermarkets and how they didn't have any, like, baking ingredients, and I had all these baking ingredients from my suppliers. So I actually just made a bakery delivery, service. Wow. Just, like, things like flowers. From your home?

From my home. Yeah. Flower, eggs, like milk, even things like washing up liquid, all these things. And I was just doing, like, local deliveries of, like, I had 50 clients Wow. Because I couldn't really do more than that, and I was driving around and delivering stuff.

This is such a 2020 flashback. Right? Because even you just mentioning these shortages has taken my mind back to those empty supermarket shelves. Yes. So you've got I love how you've leveraged.

You've got all of this supply from obviously having placed these orders, having just signed this one new contract with Spitalfields. You've got that sat in your kitchen, and so you've adapted. I really feel like COVID also divided the crowd. I feel like there's other people who could very easily, like, sit back, play video games, and then obviously you and the other camp of, like, I need to keep busy. I need to keep busy.

But also it was crazy to me to, like I was running, obviously, Humble Crumble for nearly two years at that point. Right. Not much success, and then I'd started a business that overnight was successful. I was like, wow. This is crazy.

Suddenly, everyone wants my delivery service. I remember looking how funny that was.

SM: Can you describe exactly what you're defining that as? Like, how bad was that? And crucially, why did you keep going?

KI: I think so I'll try and paint the picture, like, chronologically. I started in a farmer's market in Primrose Hill, because that was the market that accepted me. It was a a farmer's market, so it wasn't such a as a big as a food market where they would want more brand credibility, but still, they did want something, and I had to set up a stall in a in a garden and take pictures of it and pretend that, you know, we were already been trading.

And it was a it was the wrong market for Humble Crumble because it was a 10AM to 2PM Sunday. Well, actually, it was a Saturday market, and people were getting their groceries, so I that was I think I made £60 on my first day, and my rent was £60. Interesting.

But it for me, it wasn't more around, like, financials. Obviously, it would be great to, like, open and suddenly everyone wants to crumble. But it was more about just figuring out, like, the the setup and just, like, learning things from other traders. I remember there was a trader next to me who told me that we have these fruit kettles, and that those need to be at the front of the store because people want to see what you're doing. They want everything there. And the theater's so important. So, like, that was just, like, an anecdotal thing that I picked up, and it shaped our humble crumble. It operates to this day. And then I moved to Mulberry Street Market, but there was a bit of a time gap.

I managed to get weekend markets for two months, and that was a trader spot. So I managed to get that. But the reason why I find it was a bit unsuccessful is because they kept moving my spot within the market, which may not think makes a big difference, but after getting used to where you are. And if you move one stop down so it was really hard to build up a a base there. But it was still much more successful than the Primrose Hill market. And then I kept doing different guest spots around London. So it wasn't that I never really was consistently trading until Spitalfields.

SM: Did you have another day job at this time?

KI: So I was tutoring people. I when I was at university. I set up a tutoring agency where I subcontracted, university students to tutor their degree subject to GCSE and a level students, And I just kind of continued that, as in just for myself. I just thought I can do a few hours a day, make enough money to be able to keep going, and then put the rest of my time into Humble Crumble. But, I mean, it was really it was really difficult, and I felt quite directionless a lot of the time being like, I don't really know where the next steps are. And why hum I know, obviously, we're kinda, like, going back in the timeline here, so we should also touch on, like

SM: Why crumble? Did you want to be an entrepreneur? Why this particular dessert? Why the food business? Why pop ups?

KI: I so I had the idea when I was studying. I well, I've always made crumble for my family every week for about ten years. It was actually one of the first things that ever learned how to make it. I learned how to make it at school, and I really just enjoyed the fact that it would bring my family together. I've got quite a big family, so it would be one of the moments in the week where everyone would just, like, kinda stop, get come together and just, like, enjoy a crumble. I really enjoyed making that.

So I kind of set myself on this task every week to try and make a different crumble or try and make it better, and my family were my guinea pigs. So when I was actually in in Brighton, I was look I was standing outside of an ice cream shop on a on a winter's day looking in, and and they didn't have any customers. And I've seen this ice cream shop in the summer be packed. So I was looking at them thinking this is a really successful summertime business, like, what could they do in the winter? And because I had always made crumble, I think I just had the idea.

I was thinking they should they should be making crumble. And I actually initially was like, this is such a great idea. Like, it's so set up for The UK market, especially with the weather, especially with the fact that we love we love crumble here. We have conversations around what the best part of a crumble is. Like, it's so, like, so much, like, dialing treasure.

It is a it is a national treasure. And I was just thinking, like, you know, what how can I do this? And I looked into, like, because I was graduating from university and I was like, maybe I should try and set up a cafe. I looked into it and I got really freaked out by all the numbers. And I'm not really a numbers person. But I I basically I I just I found out things like, you know, the the rents in Brighton because Brighton was where I was looking. I was like, that's crazy. Then I learned about business rates. I couldn't believe that there was a tax on rent. I was like, rent's already really expensive. Then VAT, like and then also just not knowing, like, any equipment. I mean, how do you how often should we rent? Everything.

And I'm like, this is just too alarming. So I put the the idea aside, and I'll just flash forward that I was work like, two years. I was working for a food start up, and that that start up got bought by a large company, and I lost my job. And Humble Crumble, the idea had just been in my head for two years.

And I kinda had this moment where I was like, I'm just gonna strip it all back, and I'm just gonna test it. Because if I don't, I'll I'll really kick myself. I'll really kick myself especially if I walk past a crumbled place. I think I had the idea.

SM: What a telltale sign.

Right? That thought. Number one, that it's been on your mind for so long, but also that that idea that I wanna just kind of underline for the listeners. The idea that you've got in your mind right now, imagine whether it's physical, digital, let's just keep with physical for this example is, like, walking down the street and seeing somebody else doing it, how that makes you feel. And, obviously, this part in your story is just like, you'd be, I guess, devastated, right? You're like, no. Like, this was my thing, my idea. On this point in the story, don't worry. I know we've sort of gone on a tangent on tangent, but we are gonna it's fine. Listeners, bear with us. It's all good. It's all about the story. At this point, what I have to ask you because now it's kind of like two years in, lost your job. You've had this impetus now to actually go and launch the business.

What I loved loved loved hearing you mention was how you read The Lean Startup, and how you applied the principles from the land of tech, from Silicon Valley around, like, MVP, market validation, etcetera, etcetera. I would love for you to describe that and outline those exact principles that you applied from the world of tech to food.

KI: Well, the whole street food, store is the start of that lean startup model where you just put an idea out there and you test it. You get you get feedback and then you tweak it based on that feedback and then you test it, you get feedback and you tweak it. And I guess it's that cyclical cyclical growth, which is so instead of linear, which I think has shaped Tom McCrabble so much and actually helped me a lot when I was standing behind the store and not having any customers or many customers and feeling quite embarrassed because I'm really not a natural salesperson. So it would I kind of had the idea of, like, if this isn't doing well, it's because, like, maybe the product needs to change a little bit or I've priced it wrong or I'm in the wrong market. And I kinda looked at it as an experiment. Everything is a small experiment, not like I'm direct personally.

Yeah. I like just feedback. It's just feedback. And I've never made a business plan because I read that book, and I was like, yeah,

Ultimately, you don't people don't really know what their customers want. And customers don't really know what they want, but you put something in front of them, they'll give you feedback on it. Yeah. There's the classic Ford quote, isn't there? You ask people what they want, and they'd say a faster horse.

So were there any surprising discoveries in those early days? Was there something where you were like, wow, I did not see this coming? Well, I I initially, I thought about I kind of took humble crumb I didn't really test just like, oh, does anyone want a crumble, like, a crumble place? I was like, does anyone want an alcohol infused crumble? Because I initially infused them with alcohol trying to make them look really interesting, like, these kind of, like, crazy flavors that I'd serve my family, instead of going back and just being like, what is the basic of this and seeing if you would want that.

And I think, that was a big learning curve for me, that I didn't even want to put apple crumble on the menu at the beginning because I wanted people to try something that they wouldn't normally go for. And but I've learned that people really want what they want. And and so when I about a year out year in, I was like, alright. I'm just gonna put apple crumble on the menu. And, like, immediately, it was almost like, can I have a crumble?

Can I have a crumble? Can I have a crumble? Wow. I was like, wow. I've really shot myself to the foot with this Like, trying to be super different.

I guess also where you've had so many years practice of making crumble, like, week in, week out, I would imagine that, personally, you'd want to, like, creatively extend yourself too. Right? And be like, look at this amazing thing I can do, almost more like a creator than a than a than an entrepreneur at least initially, where it's just like, no. Actually, just strip it back.

Keep it simple. I love also that insight where you saw kind of the day and night where you saw, like, as soon as you added that, the change was obvious. Yeah. I think that's reassuring for entrepreneurs as well. It's like, you will know.

Like, if you're constantly changing, experimenting, if it's working, you will see the difference. Yeah. For sure. And and also just, like, give people what they want. Yeah.

You can't pull anything. You gotta even at at the end of the day, a business is about finances and, you know, if people want something, give it to them. Serving the market. Yeah. Yeah.

For sure. Any other surprises in these early days? I guess the main surprise for me was more it was probably a marketing surprise that I thought if I put up a a stall that said as you were calling them crumble bars, because, obviously, it was alcohol infused as well. Right. And I thought it was similar to, like, a sushi bar.

Yeah. I used to have a a slogan that said eat responsibly. Nice. But, and so I had a sign that said crumble bar. It said humble crumble, and then it's how about the menu that had the different crumbles on it?

But people would still come up to me and say, what are you selling? And I I found that really interesting. I think, obviously, potentially one of the reasons why that was because the alcohol side of things, even though it was all burnt off, it it just kind of confused people. But also, they had never seen a crumble place before. Yeah.

It was too many new things. Too many new things. Even though I think it was just a crumble place without the alcohol on it, I think it would have been. Still nude. Still nude.

Yeah. And just like yeah. When you go into a market, you expect to see, like, crepes. You expect to see pizzas maybe. But you you hadn't at that time expected to see crumble.

No. Definitely not. No. Not at all. So it's funny just on that note, sorry to interrupt, but it reminds me of, another interview that I did, which was with Nick Telson Sillett, who's the founder of design, Design My Night Mhmm.

Which he then sold for, like, 30,000,000 or something crazy. And one of the niggas, I feel like it still annoys him to this day, is people called it Design by Night. This is why I hesitated with the name because I had that in mind, and he's like, that just doesn't know what what that doesn't mean anything. We're just Design by Night, and it's like, it's there in the website, but it's just those, like, mistake, these errors. Again, people are just not they're not paying as much attention to the business as you are.

People need to get it immediately. Yeah. No. So like, it does need to be really, really, really Yeah. And clear, especially even to be honest, actually, I just think with all communication.

Yeah. Like, it needs to be simple and clear. Yeah. Like, I see some, you know, points that people make, and I think, how can you condense that down to make it clearer? Because I want to get it immediately.

SM: So where are we at? And so so you've done this early testing. Are we fast forwarding back to three days before lockdown at this point?

KI: We can go to, when we opened after the first lockdown. So that was I think it was June 15, and we basically I say we. I'm so used to saying we, but it was me at the time. I opened back up again in Spitalfields, and I actually won't lie to you. I've really thought about shutting the business down because I was just like, the world has changed so much. And I don't know if Humblecrumble fits into the the new way of the world. But I also thought, I don't really know what my skills are, and I don't really know what jobs I can get.

So I'm gonna and I have this contract with Spitalfields, so, like, let me still go gone anyway. And see. Mhmm. So I was I was there, and I had all this time because I didn't have any customers. And at the market, I didn't have any customers.

It was really quiet. So I decided to change my setup. I was previously before the pandemic, I had a commercial kitchen that we rent one day a week, and I would prep everything there. And then I would bring everything to the markets. So I should say I would prep one day a week when I was doing a weekend market.

For an everyday a week market, I'd prep more times a week. And instead, I was like, okay. Well, I don't wanna sit stand here twiddling my thumbs, so I'm gonna get rid of the commercial kitchen. I'm gonna move an oven into this two by two meter saw, fridge, freezers, hobs, everything. I had the most packed stall you you could ever imagine.

Right. But I was there making everything fresh Right. So that I could be really productive and also lean in in costs. Nice. Plus, of course, the theater point. Right? People seeing the point. And and I guess another thing I learned, and that is people did come in because they could smell the crumble topping.

That's funny. Yeah. These sorts of things that you just wouldn't necessarily think about in a in a vacuum, like in a closed in a meeting room talking to people. Yeah. It's all these little things.

Like, until you're actually there in person, you're learning up the those tricks of the trade. You're like, oh, actually, this man is wafting around the market. Cool, Karen. And and I also just experimented in this time with specials because I I thought I want to completely, leverage social media if I can. I want to create something that's really interesting, especially because people are spending so much time on their phones.

Mhmm. And, actually, on that point, my my friend of mine who has been Humblecrumble social media manager for the past four four or five years, actually, She all of her clients dropped her during the pandemic, and I was the only one that kept her on. And I kept saying, like, let's post. Let's post. Let's post.

This is a really good time when everything else is quiet to make some noise. Yeah. And we were gaining some followers that way and more more brand awareness. People were saying, like, I can't wait to come and try you when everything opens up again. So, that was just my little tip there.

SM: When things everyone thinks to pull the marketing when things go wrong, but really lean into it. Oh my god. Listeners? I did not feed that line to Kim. That is absolutely music to my ears. (So I used to own a marketing consultancy before this and went through these highs and lows. And, yeah, the moment you start putting the marketing, it's like I mean, clearly, I'm biased, but it's like downward spiral, guys. So I'm, of course, very pleased to hear you say that. I loved how you phrased it before with, like, when everything's quiet, you've got the opportunity to make noise.

Were there any, like, practical tips and tricks from social media that you leveraged at that time?

KI: Well, my social media manager, she actually is from New Zealand, and she got stuck in New Zealand for two years. Not bad place to be, but, obviously, it meant, completely other side of the world. She wasn't gonna take photos or anything. So, actually, that's when we decided to invite micro influencers, to come and knew they would take the content, and we would repost it.

They'd get some free crumbles. That's good. And it was obviously a really nice way of working because, it it it was a win win for everyone. And you turned lemons into lemonade with this situation. Right?

And she actually invited one, influencer down who then took the pictures of the pumpkin crumbles. And on her page, it went viral, and Timeout saw it there and said, can we post this? Amazing. So that's sort of the thing that changed everything. And, practically, from when we went viral, it was like there's a queue of, like, 20 people when there was no queue before, And then that that queue kept getting bigger and bigger and bigger because it was, like, this real really this, like, spark that people really then got that a crumb walk place existed, whereas previously they just didn't Yeah.

They couldn't they didn't get it. And so they would share it with their friends and family. They'd come. They'd take their own pictures or videos, and they would go viral as well.

So within a week, we went viral also on Instagram and TikTok. Wow. The best thing you could ever wish for. Alright? We had people in the queue, chatting to each other, like, oh, is are you here from TikTok, or you here from Instagram?

Yeah. Did you see this on Time Out? All this stuff. It was, like, really quite wholesome. Yeah.

And we ended up, was we at this time because I had managed to hire some people. We had to really quite quickly change the operations. To cope with this To cope with this. Change in demand. There was, like, no space behind this store because I rammed it full of a bit.

And it was small to begin with. So Spitalfields let us use a unit opposite us that had a kitchen. So we were then servicing ourselves, making a riva crumble and fillings, everything there, bringing it to this market store. And then it just got too small, so we ended up having to move everything to that so that kitchen. And then we moved again to a bigger space, which and then we were there for about two years and, again, outgrew outgrew that space, and now we're in a 2,000 square foot bakery.

Oh my god. Incredible. Alright. I definitely wanna get into scaling and how the business is obviously completely different level to what it was in those very, like, humble humble beginnings. Sorry. I cannot help making all these puns. But just before we do, just sticking with this with this viral moment, there's two quick questions I wanna ask you on that. One was the, guess, like, how you've how you've fostered this culture of creativity. I know you talk about, like, experimenting a lot, and there's kind of there's two things here. One is, like, keeping things simple. Like we're saying before, like, people just want, like, a basic well done, like, apple crumble, but at the same time, you've got this amazing creation that led you to going viral. So I wanna talk a little bit around that kind of the creativity piece and balancing that with business. But also from the business perspective, how much was that viral moment kind of like, clearly, it wasn't just a one off spike because it was before another. You've been able to maintain that growth.

I'm sure it's not quite at the same, like, crazy level. But from that business perspective, like, how do you, how do you how do you kind of make sure that you don't sort of spike back down again, like, straight after that viral moment and keep maintaining that growth?

When we went viral, I did think, is this gonna be a two week thing? Right. Like, I have no idea. But I all I could do is, you know, control what I was making, what my team were producing at the time, which was hopefully really good quality crumbles. And, actually, I've seen a lot of especially in the food space, a lot of businesses go viral.

And One hit, one done. One hit, one done. Mhmm. And you can kind of see it from the outside where, you know, that if if you're not really passionate about the product that you're creating Mhmm. And you you really wanna create the best thing that you can, I think and if you're just trying to to create something to go viral, then I think that's the wrong There is that substance behind it?

They Yeah. And and and customers will see and will find that out, and then then you will have to be that one. So you just really need to be first focusing on your product and then your marketing. Maintain the quality. Yeah.

Yeah. So linked to that then, I guess, like, the quality and, like, making sure you you meet those quality those high quality standards that you have. Obviously, talk about how you maintain that while scaling, but then linking to that other question around the creativity. Like, what made you want to go out and do this, like, pumpkin crumble when you know that it's kinda like the basics? They're just like they do well.

Well, I didn't really know that at the time. Mhmm. I know that now. Mhmm. I mean, 50% of what we sell is apple crumble and custard.

So, like, it's obviously people want the classic. Right. And also as well, like, apple crumble is very much maybe the entry point. Some people a lot of people have come to us and never had a crumble before, and they'll go for the Yeah. The most traditional one.

Mhmm. But the specials are a really good form of marketing for us and, obviously, creativity too. Mhmm. I really want to make sure that, as a business, we keep having fun with Crumble and keep trying to, like, pull it as much as we can, but still maintaining, like, a really good quality product that is a crumble. Do you do anything creative with your team?

Do you do any sort of, like, exercises or activities or anything to maintain that that creative spirit internally? Okay. You just, like, go wild. I don't know. I think I just think we have a a real mentality of just test it.

Yeah. I think that lean startup mindset is still there of, like, is this a good idea? I have no idea. Yes. Let's put a small test out there.

I mean, look, we were actually like, an example is we have a humble match as well on men in the mono. There's no branding on that Uh-huh. Because we're testing to see if people want it. Uh-huh. Like, that stuff can actually take a lot of prat planning to get, like, the cups and everything sorted.

Right. But why would I spend all the money and time waiting for these cups if I don't know if the product's gonna do very well? Yeah. And actually, the product is doing really well, so I'm probably gonna But I guess that's still never having led a food business whatsoever. Like, the closest I've been to, like, the food industry is, like, being a waitress.

So this is very much, like, coming from the outside. I would imagine in that that vein of kind of mitigating risk, we're not gonna overspend. We just wanna test it out, validate the market first. And imagine you still have, like, you still have to make the the the supply orders. Right?

As a minimum order quantities, you still got them there's still gonna be a financial bet to even test out different things. So, like, is there a decision making process with, like, which ones do we test out, or are you able to just keep that, like, so minimal that it doesn't matter? I You see what I mean, aren't I? I kinda see what you mean, but there isn't our suppliers are, like, really, like, good partners Nice. For us.

So and they they supply a lot of London restaurants as well. So they have you can just, like, say, like, I wanna order some chili powder. Right. Not that we've ever put there in. Right.

From all that came to me. Maybe. I used this in your first Chili chocolate croissant summer. Love it. And, you know, I rest I have a recipe developer, who's also head of quality control, like, product development.

She she will think ahead of time at what what specials do we want, what do we want on the menu, and she'll go and she'll test it. She'll just have, like, lots of fun doing it. Yeah. The team will say, have you thought about this for this, etcetera? She we then, get all of the team to make it as a trial.

We then, if if you're a part of our broadcast channel on Instagram, you'll see that every month, you can get a free crumble. Oh. Come and chase our specials. We can do a little mini crumble. Alright.

We're definitely gonna put a link to that in the in the show notes. Nice one. Thanks for that. This is worth listening at least to this point, guys. But this way, you know, we get to, one, have no food waste from our, crumble training, which is really important to our business.

Nice. And also we get feedback from customers. Yeah. They can tell us what they like or not. Awesome.

I love that. Yeah. So having great partners helps because you can just be like, can we grab some of this and that to play around? I mean, as well, like, if you really needed to, you can just get something from the supermarket. Yeah.

If you're just doing a test before you're all, like, gonna scale it Yeah. For instance. I mean, actually, when we did the humble match as well, which is a, a matcha with our frozen custard in the middle. So it's like an iced matcha.

And then we also have raspberry gel, but that raspberry gel is the same gel from our trifold crumble. Mhmm. Yeah. So we're, like, repurposing that. And, but we just decided like, we saw basically, the backstory is, someone on TikTok said, I think a crumble Humble Crumble frozen custard would go really well with matcha, and she tried it out.

And we were, like, already thinking about something to do with matcha along those lines. So cool. So we just tested it out, but that really, like, pushed us to try it. And we just said, let's get four different matches. Yeah.

Actually, we had three different matches, and then somebody that I had met said, who'd wanted to start a matcha business, and she was asking me a little bit of advice in in my partner's business, Triangle Spitcast. We we met there. She messaged me happened to message me on that same day that we were doing matcha testing Wow. That said, can I give you some matcha? And I said, well, we're actually doing blind taste testing this afternoon, and you can get it to me then.

What a coincidence. Isn't that crazy coincidence? So crazy. Yeah. So she she, brought it, and we did blind taste testing.

And, actually, we that was our favorite. Oh my god. Meant to be. Yeah. Do you believe in destiny?

No. I kinda I feel like I knew the answer to that part, but I had to because that that is wild. I just also have to comment on the fact that, of course, you know, at this point in the business, given your huge following and your level of social media engagement, like, the fandom, it doesn't always need to come from inside the business. Right?

If you see someone on TikTok, it's like following I feel like a lot of entrepreneurs feel, especially early days, feel like they need to have the answers. I feel like this is something that doesn't quite get talked about enough. It's like, it's not cheating. It's not it's not like you're doing it the wrong way by getting your answers from your customers, if anything else the right way, like, if you're actually getting those signals Yeah. No.

I mean, there's a there's a classic phrase of, like, people think that when you're an entrepreneur, you you don't have a boss, but actually, like, everyone's your boss. Yeah. Exactly. All the customers are your boss. Customers are your boss.

Your team are your boss. Like, if they're unhappy, then then they're the top of Your boss just shifts, don't they?

I can imagine there's been so many over the years. So we're at the point as well in the story where, like, you're scaling up. This is the first time that you're operating a business of this site.

So you've got the practicalities of, like, going from shoving these ovens in a two by two, like, stormwater and spitz offers. And they're like, oh my god. We're outgrowing. We're outgrowing. How else did you navigate that wild scale up journey?

I know that you're amazing at delegating. So talk to us about that. Well, before it was delegating, I'll just say one point that we start I started Humblecrumble using very much, like, home equipment and or, like, mid or entry commercial equipment, like a big oven Mhmm. That I would just plug in. Right.

Whereas, actually, commercial equipment, it's like commercial ovens are crazy. I just let me tell you. They they need water in. They need water out. They can steam.

They can clean themselves. They can rapidly get to temperature. Wow. Whole other ballgame. Whole other ballgame there.

About 13,000 pounds for an Are these like your you know how you have, like, boys and their toys? Is this, like, your toy for you? It's a toy, but I have to say I was really excited to get this oven because I was like, this means to be amazing. As in just on that no, actually. Sorry.

Because in your bio, obviously, I've kind of rattled off a few of the incredible awards. So congratulations, you know, all these, like, amazing accolades. But I feel like even just sort of picking up on your body language and stuff. Things like that oven. Was that like more of a milestone for you, or are there any other specific moments that actually really mean a lot to you beyond the superficial?

I guess, what having the oven was was cool. To be able to, like, afford a £13,000 oven was really great, and I could just see the immediate impact of it. And, also, one of the reasons why I went down that route was well, there was many reasons. One was, you know, we need to make more at once. A lot of it stemmed from we have a huge amount of demand, and we need to figure out to how to make that quicker.

Yeah. Because we've got really long queues. People were waiting, like, hours for a crumble. And I was like, I was like, this is not this is not sustainable for that dampened. So we need to change all our equipment.

And the first thing we changed was the oven so we could produce more crumble topping, which is capacity. And then we actually added a different, piece of equipment which allowed us to create.

Instead of making our fruits and our custard in pans, it was just, like, much larger quantities, much more, like, this technology can kind of just, like, work with you. It's, like, temperature probed. So for instance, before we had this machine, one of the common things that would happen is, our custard would boil over, or we'd get burnt burnt burnt berries at the bottom of the pan because it wasn't stirred enough. Right. Whereas this machine just, like, because of the temperature probe probing, it allows, like, consistent, temperature Yeah.

Leveling. And also, like, holds it there and waits for the person to do the next step before it does continues. Right. Right. Anyway, that's just like It's like leveling up.

Like, off the level. Yeah. And then we also had to get in a, different payments service where we we were taking orders manually. And, so that's like someone comes up and said, hi, like a crumble, which is actually really simple. But, actually, a lot of people, you may not know this, but when they come up to the beginning of a queue, they'll say, hey.

What's the best thing on this menu? Like, talk to me about it. But there's, like, forty, fifty people behind you, and you're like A total lack of self awareness. Like, could you not see the menu from, like, a few people back to make up your mind? Some people.

Yeah. I mean, I have to say but then, you know, some people want they, you know, they they really want the best thing or or they they're, like, not sure. So I I do understand that, but so what we ended up having to do is getting these iPads in where it meant that three or four people could order at once. Yeah. Nice.

Which just really sped things up. Anyway, we kind of were on this process of, like, let's keep improving the quality of our product by having better equipment Yeah. But also how can we improve our service and, speed of service. Yeah. Yeah.

Absolutely. It makes sense. And can I ask you from a risk perspective, what gave you the confidence to make certain investments? Because with this type of consumer business, it's like, I mentioned before my last company was a marketing consultancy, so it's like b to b. So I've got client contracts.

So that gives me more confidence. I can say, we're def like, I can quite confidently forecast what's gonna be coming in over the next however many months. In business, obviously, you've only got, you know, past performance, which, of course, isn't always an indicator of future for especially the roller coaster ride that you've been through. So, yeah, so how do you feel confident enough to say, I'm gonna invest 13 k in an oven, or I'm gonna take this contract when Well, I think starting from a market store really takes away a lot of risk. Like, I wasn't paying commercial.

I mean, actually, that's not true. The the rents I was paying were high, but, at the time of COVID, they switched to, like, a revenue share. So that way, it was, low risk from that perspective. Mhmm. Humblecrumble went from serving, you know, two crumbles a day, then going viral and serving, like, 20, then hundreds, and then thousands a day.

Wow. It was a very sudden Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. And that but that was a very sudden increase in cash flow.

Yeah. Which obviously really helped. So then did that help you to create a buffer and just like a a financially a runway? Yeah. Financial runway.

Yeah. Definitely. I also don't have any business partners. Mhmm. So it was As an investors.

I don't have any investors. Yeah. I don't have, a cofounder Mhmm. Who or who I needed we needed to split the revenue with to be able to make money. Yeah.

So I think that really does help. And, actually, that is quite a big point Mhmm. When starting a business. If you do want to start a business, I only go with a cofounder if they can offer you something that you can't do yourself. Otherwise, it actually can be a bit of a risk to the business because you you have to pay both of yourselves.

You're doubling up, like, the salary, who does what they need, everything else. There's such pros and cons. I feel like there's a whole other, like, separate hour conversation just on cofounders, isn't it?

And I think such a huge part of it is the type of business that you're running. I think if it is, like, a VC backed tech company, there's a lot of arguments to say more from an investor standpoint that they just feel like they can have more confidence when there is two of you, but, obviously, in this case, you clearly haven't needed one. So Well, I I I do have, my actually, my my boyfriend, he is, the cofounder of Try Guys. We met in Spitalfields Market during the pandemic time when there weren't any customers. And he has, for the last, three or four years now, helped grow Humblecrumble, and he is essentially like my business partner now.

But when I started Yeah. I didn't have anyone. Yeah. And he has the complete well, there's crossovers, but he he really complements my skill set. Yeah.

So, it's not to say don't get partners. Sure. It's just don't rush into finding someone because you're scared of doing it alone. Yeah. I love that.

Yeah. That's totally true. And I think, also, you fill up such an incredible team around you. I love also, I know we haven't touched on this, but I know that you promote from within as well, which is fantastic. You've got great loyalty.

And, I had this as a solo founder as well, and and I felt like you're plugging those gaps with your team around you anyway. And if you foster that great culture, that great environment, it's, you don't feel like there's that missing piece necessarily. Yeah. I think you can learn anything. Mhmm.

So Yeah. If you if someone is up for the challenge of a new role, then then give it to them. Yeah. Try and obviously give them as much support as possible. Yeah.

KI: Love that. So where are we at today with Humble Grumble? Like, how big is it? How many sites?

KI: We have five sites, four within London and one in Vista Village. There's about 80 team members. But I would caveat that with some of them are part time because that's the nature of hospitality. We are looking at what we should be doing as our next steps as a business, but also really trying to refine our internal processes at the moment. There'll be lots of exciting specials. I hope that we can open in places where people want us. That that journey will be exciting. It's about really choosing the right locations. And, you know, actually, I was just having a conversation with somebody before this about how big do you grow before it stops being special? And I don't know what the answer is to that. Because, you know, I never don't really know what to call ourselves at the moment. We've got five bakeries. Are are we a chain? I don't know. Like, chain has a dirty word, like, associations to it, in my head at least. But then you have places that do really, really good jobs at it.

So I think it's it's a it's a great question, though, because I think I don't know. I think you can I think, like, it goes back to your core principle of the product quality? I think because I mean, what I'm about to say was I think I was going to say, as long as you remain a destination based brand, but then I thought, like, even if you do move into, like, direct to consumer or supermarket, I mean, there are still lots of special treats and brands. I mean, like, Croster Molica, for example, is, like, a household favorite of ours. Like, the pizza, they branch into ice cream, and it still feels I guess, it's sort of slightly more premium pricing.

The packaging's gorgeous, and they get the product's quality is gorgeous. I still maybe I just want you to be huge, but I I think it would be possible. I can visualize it, but that's a good question. It's definitely possible. I just thinking about it.

Thinking about it, thinking about the right next steps, and just, it it's it's hard to reverse a decision, so you you need to really think about it. Do you know about the Bezos decision making framework? No. Okay. Well, this is good to share if any listeners haven't heard of it as well.

So there is a quadrant of whether something is urgent or important oh, sorry. Yeah. Urgent, important, and then reversible, irreversible. And Jeff Bezos, he's got he's got I think he calls it like the two way door principle, and his idea is, like, most decisions are reversible. Like, you can go in, you can tap to your point.

Obviously, you're a fantastic case study for, like, the power of dipping your toe in and testing, getting feedback, and market validation. It was like there are few where it's completely, like, life and death, and it's, like, completely irreversible. So, yeah, if if you're ever kinda stuck with making a decision, outline all the factors. Like, is this urgent important, reverse or irreversible? And then that feeds into the ALAP and ASAP decision making.

So it's like, because most decisions are reversible, try to mitigate that risk as much as possible or go through any other source of heuristics decision making process and then test it in that lean way for the fewer that are irreversible. The a lap is then as long as possible. Like, really think about it, really meditate. So, yeah, there you go. That's my little last time to book you.

I find all these, like, tips and, like, management Yeah. Like frameworks. Frameworks really interesting. Same. I definitely need them.

Because stuff like this is just like, I think you were saying before about you just figure things out as you go along. And unless someone else shares that with you and they actually put that kettle in the front or, like, this is what this commercial oven looks like, you just you are just left to your own devices. Right? And I think with decision making in particular, we make, I think, is it, like, 30,000, like, micro decisions a day. And I think as entrepreneurs, that number probably shoots up to, like, a hundred thousand.

So you get that decision fatigue over time. And so having those sort of principles and frameworks to be, like, how do we keep moving? How do we try and make the right decision? I think there's also something on not putting that pressure on yourself to make the right decision because you can only make the best decision possible but with the information that you have at that moment in time. And so yeah.

Yeah. For sure. Although you can do loads of research. Yeah. But then how helpful is that?

Feel like there's a lot of research that, a, you can kinda find the research to back up the answers that you actually want. And then Yeah. I guess I'm I'm the reason why I said that is actually again, it kinda comes back to my partner. His name is Gabriel. We're he's such a researcher.

Uh-huh. Whereas I'm like, let's just try it. Yeah. Nice. Let's just try this out.

Yeah. Yeah. And there's, like, real cases for both. Yeah. Like, Humble Crumble being the first Crumble Bakery.

Like, no one else has done it before. So, like, there's not much research that you can do. Right. Right. So it's a let's just put it out there.

Ashley, Gabriel, he, and his cofounder, launched a bakery in Portobello Road called Try Guys Bakehouse. And for that, Gabe basically spent hours and hours and hours researching what a kitchen setup and equipment needs to be like, Like, looking at, like, you know, images of different bakeries around the world that he really liked, you know, speaking to bakers, YouTube videos, and these things. Mhmm. And then getting, like, good designers in to try and figure out, like, flows of stuff. And he's not a baker.

Yeah. He doesn't have that first hand experience. But He's a researcher. He researched it. And, you know, he got in really well trained bakers who came in and said, this equipment is amazing, and the layout is amazing.

It's one of the it's not a huge kitchen, but it's they've said, this is the best kitchen I've ever worked.

SM: Wow. Yeah. Kudos. But I think the big word of caution that I would wanna put on this podcast is I definitely meet a lot of people firsthand who will fall into that trap of analysis paralysis or will use it as an excuse. Yeah. And they will use, like, the planning, the researching. I haven't I haven't enough homework. I haven't signed up to enough courses. I haven't blah blah blah blah. Yeah. When really, it's just masking that fear. So I think you're totally right. I think with everything, the answer's always somewhere in the middle.

Well, Kim, thank you so much for opening up and sharing so much of your journey.

It's been so genuinely interesting from starting out based on kind of this passion, but then applying the principles of the lean startup in this in the tech world, applying that to the food business, all the kind of the highs and lows and lessons along the way.

Thank you so much for listening as well. Let us know what you learned from this, and, of course, don't forget to hit that subscribe button.

Strategy & Tragedy: CEO Stories with Steph Melodia is the best podcast for curious entrepreneurs and ambitious founders. Learn from those a few steps ahead of you in these candid interviews of the highs and lows of scaling and failing business.

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