UCL professor and serial founder: lessons in entrepreneurship with Mike Bandar

Strategy & Tragedy: CEO Stories with Steph Melodia is the best business podcast for curious entrepreneurs featured in the UK's Top 20 charts for business shows.

Hosted by Stephanie Melodia, Strategy & Tragedy features candid interviews with entrepreneurs who have scaled - and failed - their businesses - sharing their lessons in entrepreneurship along the way. From Simon Squibb of 'What's Your Dream?' Internet fame to Lottie Whyte of Sunday Times Top 100 Fastest-Growing company, MyoMaster. From exited founders like Nick-Telson Sillett to subject matter experts like Alex Merry in the public speaking arena and Matt Lerner, the GOAT of Growth.

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In this week's episode, Stephanie Melodia interviews Mike Bandar, founder & CEO of Waybook - an onboarding, training and knowledge tool for businesses to turn what they know into scalable systems, providing a single source of truth for growing teams.

He is also the co-founder of Hopper, a social media scheduling tool; the founding partner of Turn Partners, a startup studio, and; owner of ToyBoy Warehouse, the UK’s largest dating site for older women and younger men.

Mike Bandar is also a lecturer in Entrepreneurship at UCL and proponent of effectual thinking, especially in entrepreneurship.

Watch the full interview on YouTube via the link below or keep reading for the transcript, where Steph and Mike discuss:

• Can entrepreneurship be taught?

• Effectual thinking in entrepreneurship

• Building the right entrepreneurial environment

• Wartime vs peacetime leadership: how Mike has navigated through the inevitable ups & downs of business

• Building multiple businesses without EVER having raising external capital

• And so much more.

SM: One of the things that we both have in common (in addition to 5,000,000 job titles!) is we are both educators in entrepreneurship.

MB:That's true, yes.

SM: You are a lecturer at UCL. So my opening question to you is:

Can you teach entrepreneurship?

MB: to really dive into that, we almost need to make two totally separate distinctions about what constitutes an entrepreneur and what is necessary for somebody to become an entrepreneur. Are they born or made? But, actually, there's thousands, millions of different types of entrepreneurs. There's millions of different types of entrepreneurship in terms of, you know, is a plumber running a few additional plumbers an entrepreneur? Yes. And people running big tech startups.

But to kind of get into that, I almost separate the entrepreneurial skills that somebody would have.

So the skills being how people sell, how we do market analysis, how we can manage... the tangible tactical skill sets that we can learn, and then entrepreneurship or entrepreneurial characteristics. And by characteristics, I mean things like the grit, the hustle, the determination, the more the more tacit skills that we can kind of feel and that somebody has when we're interacting. I think most people agree that the skills can be taught, but the characteristics are where a lot of that contention comes from, and people aren't sure if it's innate or learned. In my humble opinion, I think that a lot of that can be can be learned. And I think that you might teach the skills, (and that's what we do within our teaching careers - the modules take you through how do we create a business model and how do we create value propositions and do, you know, customer intimacy and discovery.... A lot of that can be be taught).

The characteristic side of it, I think they can be trained rather than taught.

SM: I want to deep dive on teaching entrepreneurship, and I love so much what I do, Mike. Honestly, I love it so much.

What do you think are the hardest characteristics / skills to teach people who are maybe not like, innate college dropout, made some money on a lemonade stand when they were 12?

Like, not that persona, because I don't think I'm that persona either. The different persona who kind of who would be a student of yours, who does want to come and learn and be taught, what are the hardest things to teach?

MB: On the characteristic side, I would say that I would say there's almost characteristics that are necessary to be able to learn the other characteristics. Right? That makes sense. And that is pretty much grit, determination, resilience, and and and that kind of innate hustle. So there's there's almost likelessness that comes from a lot of entrepreneurs that is what is the unlock for them to then learn the other skills, characteristics, and traits necessary to unlock what they're trying to do. Makes a lot of sense. Sense. And and that that burning desire, that that burning restlessness Yeah.

Is a characteristic that I think can be can be trained, but it would more be trained through environment. So, actually, if you come from a family where it's entrepreneurial and you see people being resilient and and getting knocked back and they're still going and getting knocked back and that gives then we are a product of the people around us. Right? So you become more like that.

SM: I love that. And I wanna deep dive more into kind of, like, the inner psyche of these profiles, the motivation for some people, right?

So that grit, that hustler that you describe. I have met so many incredible entrepreneurs and those who come to mind who are just these, like, relentless machines where I'm like, you could point them at anything, and they will make it a success. Some of them almost have, like, something to prove. There's maybe, like, a revenge or chip on their shoulder.

What can you speak to on the motive like, what can motivate people to to, to nurture that that grit, that resilience?

MB: I would say that it's not all a a lot of when we talk about the the kind of Elons of the world and the chip on the shoulder, a lot of that comes from trauma. And I don't think that that means that people without trauma can not become entrepreneurs. I think it's more around aligning the aligning that grit, that that that thing you're trying to prove to something that is so fundamentally authentic for you. So if you come from a very privileged upright experience healthy, you know? And yeah. It's much healthier and it's easier to do. But I don't think that people are as well aligned to doing that deep dive into themselves and saying, why do I actually wanna do this? Exactly.

What what what feeling am I unlocking in myself? And it could just be to prove something to yourself. And you don't need trauma and chips around that, but you almost you almost dig deep into that. That makes a lot of sense. And those particular mind, I mean, psychoanalysts would have a field day with those guys.

Yeah. On that note, I'm not gonna come off the subject. I definitely wanna geek out more with you, but I have to ask, what motivates you then, Mike? Do do you know what? It's it's a question that I I wrestle with.

And I feel like over my career, I've got to different levels of of comfort. And I, if I if I can digress just a little bit, I I the way I see us as characters behaving, I I almost feel like we've you've got our comfort zone. Right? And and if we live in this comfort zone, 99% of the population loves to live in the comfort zone. And why wouldn't you?

It's comfortable. For sure. And as soon as we go out of that comfort zone, we we enter our stretch zone. And and that's really the learning zone where we start to see new things, experience new things, understand new things, and that's where we're learning. But then on the outer ring of the learning zone, we have our panic zone.

And so often, the people get out of their comfort zone, explore, look around, take you know, have a good time. And then if they tiptoe into the panic zone, they're instantly brought back into their their comfort zone and then have fear to never leave it again.

SM: I'm gonna talk to you more about fear - we'll come back to that.

MB: Yeah. So that's how we operate. And I think that what I where where I like to be is on the very edge of the learning zone just before panic. And I feel like if I'm at that point, then I just feel I feel alive, and I know that I'm making progress. I know that I'm moving fast. I know that I'm learning things. We've all well, a lot of people who push have been in panic zone, and it's just not as. But the big trap with all of this is the more you're in your stretch and your learning zone, it gets bigger because you're stretching and you're learning, and then your comfort zone becomes bigger. And I feel like I've had this these things throughout my or periods throughout my career where I feel content, and I feel I feel, oh, this is good. Take a brief, an exhale. And I mentioned to a mentor of mine once. I went to her probably about ten years ago, and I was like, Helen, I just feel so content. I feel so great. And she said it won't last. And I was like, what? How dare you? And it didn't last. Right? To for somebody as ambitious and driven as you Well, this is it.

SM: So if we take a moment in your career where you have been at the utmost outer edge of that stretch zone, can you think back to a specific moment?

You can share it with us or not. It's up to you. But the key question there is what was that driving factor on your motivation to get that far on the edge of your stretch zone?

MB: For me, it's it's more a case of challenging these these kind of limiting beliefs or assumptions that we might have. The reason why I love entrepreneurship in any form is I feel like it's one of the only things where people can can do something in a way that they choose, and and they can do it for the reasons that they choose. There there there's almost no limits, right, in in terms of how you operate and why you operate rather than who you are and what you do. Like, that that doesn't that doesn't matter within entrepreneurship. But it basically means that you can kind of set your like, choose your own adventure. Right?

You're gonna choose so so I think whenever I'm whenever I push to that outer limit, it's more where I have a clearer understanding of something that I'm not sure if it can be achieved. So it's more curiosity as a driver. It's I wouldn't say curiosity. It's more a case of uncertainty, but, so so let me give an example:

So when we started when we started Hopper, which is our our planning and scheduling tool for social media, it technically wasn't possible. It it wasn't possible to do. There was a lot within that that was a technical difficulty. What year was this? This was 2015.

Okay. And there was also a lot around, how we office in this. We we wanted to stay bootstrapped whereas we started to work in environment where everyone was VC backed. And and, actually, Hopper shouldn't really exist as a business. It it it shouldn't it shouldn't have worked.

And I love that. Because I was like, okay. Like, that that let's do something that's difficult enough that will kinda get me excited and wake up in the morning. And I I've reflected on this a couple of times over the over the years where where I feel like I think I'm a wartime CEO. Because I always love running the business, but I am I am on when there's problems.

Like, I am I am loving it. Like Is that just a sense of into the challenge? Yeah. I think I think it's, so I think it almost is just so stimulating. Right?

It is it's Makes you feel something. Makes you feel alive. You know what I'm talking about? Yeah. It's it's like, okay.

I just I I Don't do drugs. You're such an entrepreneur. Exactly. Yeah. Just, like, turn off your servers and watch the chaos happen, and then and then fix it.

Yeah. And, actually, it's funny. I I do this even even when I'm doing, you know, a talk or a workshop or something. I'm I'm I know that I will do a a a good job.

But in order to really kind of really kinda juice me, I need to leave I I I need I need to I need to make it difficult. Yeah. I need to get to the park. It's not healthy, by the way. It's not I wouldn't recommend it.

To a degree. I mean, there is there was this I'm gonna butcher it. There was a psychology study of this, like, wave where there is almost similar to, like, your concentric ripples on the the comfort zone and the stretch zone there with, the simulation. And it's kinda like you need enough pressure, enough stimulation. Perfect example there, like, if you've got a talk, but if it's really high stakes, it's that adrenaline.

It's slightly panic stations, which is fine. Obviously, it's a survival mechanism. It's fine in small doses, but it's just, obviously, if it is prolonged. So on your wartime CEO self realization here, what about the recovery from that? Because I can definitely empathize with, like, the proverbial has hit the fan.

We need to sort you out. And I'm like similarly, I'm like, okay. Get down to this. Sort this all out. But then my recovery afterward once I then can process and take a breathe, then I'm like, wow.

I need a while to to lick the wounds afterwards. Yeah. Yeah. Or rise to the challenge. And is that the same for you?

Or I I the way I the the the model I have in my head is is almost the the mental, emotional equivalent of having fast twitch or slow twitch muscle. Uh-huh. So if you think about runners, far fast twitch runners can or or fast twitch muscle, you you can sprint. Right? Yeah.

And and, actually, you sprint and then recover, and you can just nail out these 100 meters. Right. Whereas people with slow switch muscle can run a marathon, and then they have to rest. Yeah. That's a good example.

And, actually, I believe that we have the same in our in our, you know, psyche and in the way the way we work. And, it's I don't know the neuroscience behind it, but it's true Yeah. Because, he says, I don't know anything about science, but it's true. Because, actually, if you look if you look at the rates of people who have strokes after they retire. Yeah.

So, you know, the the sixty five seven, sixty seven rates of of post retirement strokes are off the chart, and and and heart attacks. And, also, you look at any parent, most parents will get ill when they're summer holidays because they've been building themselves up so much, and then their mind, their body, everything relaxes. Yourself. If you apply that to a kind of working environment, it's more about understanding how do you best operate. Mhmm.

Because some of our developers, for example, and and even our marketing team, some of these people best work in three hour chunks. Mhmm. And if I'm saying, like, so far, I wanna tell you something, I like, I'm just knock I'm killing them. Right? Like, I'm knocking them off because I'm distracting them and doing whatever.

So they'll do their three hour chunk, and then they'll have to rest and recoup for twenty minutes. For me, I I'm I'm very fast twitch on on on that side. More like a sprinter? I'm more like a actually, that that doesn't necessarily it's not better or worse. It just means that I can contact switch quickly.

Yeah. I can jump in and out of things fast. Mhmm. And also, I need more regular but shorter recovery. Yeah.

So I can have a Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And and and look. There there's I want somebody to do more in this.

Right? Like, I I did I did do a I I did do a test once, which kind of, aligned and assigned to some stuff like this Yeah. Many years ago. But I think the important thing is it's knowing how you operate and how you recover from that exertion. Exactly.

Yeah. I'm thinking of different examples of people that I've worked with, and I remember somebody brilliant who I hired with my last business. That really kinda put it, you know, brought it to light for me where they were just they were the marathon. They were like, I'm in the zone. I'm locked in.

I'm like, cool. I'll leave you alone. And, Mike, testament to your self awareness as a leader as well to know how to provide the most conducive environments to your team because, honestly, there's you know, we need more leaders like you. And especially I I actually don't think it's that surprising a trait to be that sprinter, the founder, because I think such an important and overlooked skill, especially in, like, the earlier days, is creating that sense of urgency. And so I think there's some of that that does come into play to, like, gang like, we need to, like, rally the troops.

We need to, like you just gotta create that sense of urgency for people. But then it's kinda like, I guess, once you found product market fit, once you're scaling, once you have these teams, you need to set them up for success. It's so true, but but, yeah, I think even in that time where it's high pressure, being agile, you know, chopping and changing, if if people if work that needs to be done needs deep work, focus, and concentration, then it then it is torture for for people if they're if they're, you know, being thrown to to the wind. Yeah. But, you know, interestingly, you you you, talk about minus that that actually came because we used to have an office in in Birmingham.

And I used to have a lot of guilt when I wasn't in the office. Right? Like, I I've always been involved and, like, loving it. And and because I started spending more and more time in London, I would come back from London. I'd be like, guys, I'm so sorry.

I've literally only been here one one day this week. And everyone's like, like, we have been so productive. And then, like, I think we're all better without you here. So so so that was actually the seed that got me into trying to understand why why are people better when I when I'm not around. Yeah.

And I'm not don't don't worry. I thought I was put on some Lana Del Rey. Oh, okay. Love you too, guys. Love you too.

Alright. That was amazing. So we mentioned the keyword fear. Mhmm. You mentioned that a little while ago.

I wanted to come back to and looping back into, like, teaching entrepreneurship. And my my question however long ago, it was around, like, the hardest characteristics or skills to teach people. And that was one that I had in my mind was the fear factor. And I guess that kind of relates to your concentric circle, framework there. We don't suddenly kinda leapfrog out into that danger zone.

Mhmm. But what has been your experience of pushing, I guess, sort of, like, first time founders, entrepreneurs that are new to this space, pushing them to take risks Yeah. Because risk tolerance is another huge factor when it comes to, like, success. Yeah. I I think there's a there there's more so in The UK than than in other countries.

I agree. There's an alignment between people's sense of worth being who they are, how good they are, and the project they're working on. And what you tend to find in particularly in earlier stage entrepreneurship is that people will will share and have pride about everything that they're doing. But then there you get into this kind of valley of despair where Yeah. They aren't moving as fast as they would like to be.

Mhmm. So they're not actually exposing their idea, their work, getting it in front of the in people, which actually shows down the progress of their business something, but growing. And then they build up this, fear Yeah. Of failure on or actually not looking as good as what they think they should be doing. And then it's a bit of a downward spiral.

And then it's a downward spiral. So so I actually was in a, an incubator in Birmingham for many years, and and there was this guy who, had this really great idea, this really great product, but he would never show it to us. He would never show it to us. And then every time you spoke to him, it had another feature, and it was doing another thing. And and and, actually, we we kind of went our separate ways and and left the incubator, and I saw it afterwards.

And I said, oh, whatever happened with the projects? And he said, oh, I wouldn't like, next month, we're just doing this, we're adding that. And we both knew that he he he hadn't launched it. He wasn't doing it, but he was still in this in this inertia of of saving face. Yeah.

Yeah. And I think that that that fear of, I don't even know what it is. It's just Well, I was gonna say sorry. Carry on. I know I know what it is, though.

It it's all these different fears. Yeah. Because this is sorry. I I What is that? Your story.

But in my teaching experience well, it has one of the biggest eye openers, mentoring and and having the privilege of one to one mentoring with some of these incredible, like, budding founders was the variety of fears. Mhmm. I want I still need to do, like, a whole video on this, but there's fear of judgment. There's fear of it not being perfect, like, just perfectionism getting in the way. There's simply fear of the perception and just kinda like, what are other people gonna think?

Who gives a shit? Who are these other people? The biggest thing with that, which I love, is, Unipex athlete is never gonna judge someone going out for their first run-in the same way a serial exited entrepreneur is never gonna judge anyone for starting out their first business. So whoever's judging you literally doesn't even matter. And then, of course, the fear of failure as well.

So and I think a lot of the time, because we fear fear, we don't even go as far as identifying. We don't even we just don't even we don't wanna feel it. We avoid it. We don't even go that far in our minds. What even am I afraid?

Of course, it's irrational. But once you do start to look at it, it has to identify a problem that you can then solve Yeah. Of course, it's not gonna happen overnight, and it does take time, like strengthening muscles Yeah. To increase that risk tolerance. You're you're so right.

And and I think you you say that the people who might be judging you early on don't even matter. The the the sad fact is to those people in a lot of scenarios, those people do matter because quite often they are their close friends and their family. Yeah. And and and I think keep them stuck. It keeps them stuck.

And and and I think this is this is something you see more within The UK, unfortunately, and why it's so important to be in, you know, founders circles and and and kind of getting that inspiration and and and that kind of camaraderie, if you like, from from other people. That average of the people you spend your most time with, you said. True. Right? It's so true.

I actually read something about how some criminals are, like, in the most, like, extreme crazy circumstance are, like, kept kind of stuck because that is the people that they're with, and, like, they don't wanna break free from the tribe. Yeah. Because, like, that feels like death to us as homesteaders.

Yeah, that's interesting. Always the case. Like, as in as in this is the this is the thing. And linking it back to teaching entrepreneurship, part of the value of entrepreneurial training, whether that be at university or whether that be in, you know, any any format is the cohort that you build. And back to the point of the characteristics that can be trained rather than the skills that can be taught. The more you surround yourself by these people, you kind of create a a positive echo chamber, I guess, and get that, inspiration from different people. And I think that's very easy to find actually these days.

It's almost just you need to you need to take those first and and and kind of have that resilience to stay in there even if you don't feel like you're fully you're fully at the table. I know so many people who are trapped at least in part because of the people around them. It's hard it's hard when it is, you know, being rude about it, like, when they are your close friends and family. And it's like, are you going to abandon all of that Yeah. And these people that you do care about and you love in pursuit of this personal development in entrepreneurship.

Given all the benefits in entrepreneurship and sort of sticking with the education theme for a sec, do you think that entrepreneurship factor in more into school's curriculum? 100%. And what can government do about it? Why shouldn't why are they not really doing it? It?

I thought I could ask that question. We don't have all day, but I don't know. 100%. And I and I think the, you know, the I I think it's I think it's quite politicized, actually. I I think it's quite politicized in terms of, what how firstly, how good is entrepreneurship for UK PLC? That's the main question. That that and that ultimately filters down into all kind of other policy decision. The other key thing to bear in mind, which makes this difficult to to actually, execute is the best form of entrepreneurship education, in my opinion, is from other entrepreneurs.

Mhmm. And, actually, it's very hard to systemize and scale that out to the general population through all school years. One day is doing a pretty good job of it. Just say Oh, yeah. Of course. You can sign up to one day. So I think so I think that that that's one of that's one of the kind of practical challenges, but it's the policy.

But saying that, there are there are lots of, I would say, extracurricular that have been that that are available within schools, and I know that that's become a a a more increasing Much more than before. Much more. But the underlying question you raise is so important, which is ultimately how beneficial is this for UK PLC. And if we're trying to position ourselves as half a semi decent competitor in the innovation economy, surely breeding more entrepreneurs is part of the answer. It's such a getting too political.

Should I take this to House of Lords? Yeah. Bang on that door. I want to. No.

No. I think I look. I don't I don't actually think it's I I personally don't think it's that contentious, but I think it I think maybe I'll just only speak to the people that agree with me. We need to get some politicians on this. Well, I I think, though, the just to kind of still man the other side, it's a case of, well, not everybody can be an entrepreneur. Not everybody has the opportunity.

Not with well, okay. No. I don't think everybody can become, a VC-backed tech startup. And I don't think the answer to everyone's solution is start a business. But I think that more comes down to the media's perception of a business and being an entrepreneur. Yeah. And I feel like entrepreneurship and and entrepreneurial activities can, are are becoming so kind of rich, varied, and embedded within the fabric of of what a future career would be.

Right. And to your earlier points with using, like, a plumber example, and, like, it takes shape in so many different forms, which perfectly serves me on a silver pla My follow-up question Ta ta. Which is given you are such a serial entrepreneur, you have started your own businesses, but you've also acquired businesses as well. And so I would love to hear more from you on the different ways to get into entrepreneurship. It doesn't always mean that you have to default to finding a problem to solve, finding a market to go after, doing your market analysis, having the grit and the resilience to build something from scratch.

So talk us through the other ways people can get into entrepreneurship. Maybe relate some of your experiences. Yeah. Sure. I I I think I've become a lot more popular in the last few years, really, with the whole concept of buying a boring business. That Codie Sanchez. She's basically increased the value of every storage Right. Like, lawn from that that. Every everything. Yeah. So it's a real thing. Every mechanic. Exactly. But but, I mean, the and and just on that. So so this for for for viewers who have been like, who's Codie Sanchez and what are they talking about? Is the the a lot of business influencers are now saying, look. You don't have to start. You can basically find a cash flowing business. You can you can buy it for five times revenue. You can get debt against the business to buy the business and then just sit back and print money. Now that is that is true, but it's also, like, glamorized way more than what it actually is.

Right? Like, it's hard. And you're buying these kind of clunkier businesses that you'd still need to have domain knowledge and skills and contingency and everything else. So so buying businesses is definitely one thing. I think that in a lot of scenarios, dependent on your ability to get debt, that that can still be a bit out of out of reach for people, particularly first time entrepreneurs.

And particularly, it it and and that's not necessarily a bad thing because if you've never run a business, you've never done anything, you've never managed a p and l, you've never sold, you've never to own your stripes. Well, you you almost you almost wanna test that out in a way before you've kind of put everything you've got into it and tons of debt against the business. Yeah. So so so that that is one viable way. Yeah.

The other way, I think that I I think that people can act and be entrepreneurial at a very young age, that where where the risks are lower. And and, actually, you know, going to a car boot sale and buying stuff and selling it on eBay, this is a really bad example. That's that's entrepreneurship. Right? That that's kind of understanding different things of hustling.

Yeah. And there's no risk against that. So so I feel like getting into the spirit of entrepreneurship is and and spotting those opportunities in daily life is is is great. Yeah. And, you know, you look at people like Alex Hormozi. He has lots of great ideas around this where go to a a a service business within your local your local town and say, okay. You're a chiropractor. What's the minimum that you would possibly sell a chiropractor session for? And if that's £20, then actually you can you can basically go and sell packages of 10 chiropractors for, you know For each.

Exactly. And that is a zero zero cost. Like, zero issue thing where where actually if you don't sell them, then you've lost nothing. So so there's lots of entrepreneurial tactics and and things that you can do that aren't necessarily buying a big business, starting a tech company, you know, investing lots of capital. And I think that that is an important thing for people to do if it's either a stepping stone into starting your own business.

If it'sa hustle to make some money whilst you're starting a business, or just a skill set that you're then going to later use in a job or or, you know, in in life. Yeah. A 100%. So how did you acquiring Toy Boy Warehouse come about? Because I still feel like it is kind of rare.

Like, unless you are mostly in the finance industry and you kinda, like, know the lingo and you have a bit more of that familiarity Yeah. I don't think many people think of buying a business entering entrepreneurship. Most people still think, oh, I need to start my own business, go into it. Yeah. How did it come about for you?

You must have already been aware of this concept. It was it it was actually it was actually very natural to so I would love to say I was born a a private equity champion, but that it was, it it was it was very natural. So so, basically, as I as I grew up, I I I did a lot of these kind of small thank you. I did a lot of these small

SM: Any fun ones you wanna say on the show? Oh, I mean, loads of fun ones.

I once bought a 100,000 balloons at auction, only to find that all of the print had been printed upside down, and that's why I got them so cheap. So I was basically Yes. Logging these balloons as as non helium balloons. So when you hung them upside down, it was the the print was Oh, that's so creative. Thank you very much.

Thank you very much. Yeah. Traveling dog bowls, like, just loads of things. My first proper business was a paintballing company. So I basically had a had a a business that we didn't operate the sites, but we operated the ticket sales, the booking, and and put bums on seats basically in in the sites.

Yeah. And that was a fantastic business. I run that all through throughout my university. And, actually, that's what gave me a seed bit of capital to then help with acquisition later on. So so that was a way in.

But I always had growing up impatient ambition, right? Like, I well, actually, you hear it being discussed more now as a bias to action, which is which is which is a, like, way nicer. Like, I had I grew up with a bias to action, but I was basically just like Impatient. Like ADHD Yeah.

Like, wanna be entrepreneur, and I was like, oh, look over there. Let's try and do this. Let's try and do that. So I always had that in me. And, actually, as I started doing bigger products and projects and bits like that, I almost wanted to I almost wanted to firstly formalize that a bit, and the opportunity to to buy the dating business almost just came around left field.

I was actually doing some consulting whilst starting a a a fitness supplement by subscription company. And I met the person who wanted some consulting on another business she owned. And when I found out that she had this dating business, I was like, "Wow, this is amazing!"

It was very natural. So so, basically, as I as I grew up, I I I did a lot of these kind of small thank you. I did a lot of these small happy things. You wanna say on this earth? Oh, I mean, loads of fun ones.

I I've once bought a 100,000 balloons at auction, only to find that all of the print had been printed upside down, and that's why I got them so cheap. So I was basically Yes. Balloons as as non helium balloons. So when you hung them upside down, it was the the print was the right way. Oh, that's so creative.

Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Yeah. Traveling dog bowls, like, just loads of things. My first proper business was a paintballing company.

So I basically had a had a a business that we didn't operate the sites, but we operated the ticket sales, the booking, and and put bums on seats basically in in the sites. Yeah. And that was a fantastic business. I run that all through from my university. And, actually, that's what gave me a a a seed bit of capital to that position later on.

So so that was a a way in. But I always had growing up, impatient ambition. Right? Like, I well, actually, you hear it being discussed more now as a bias to action, which is which is which is a lot way nicer. Like, I had answer.

I grew up with a bias to action, but I was basically just like Impatient. Like super fast. ADHD, like, wannabe entrepreneur. And I was like, oh, look over there. Let's try and do this.

Let's try and do that. So so I always had that in me. And and, actually, as I started doing bigger products and projects that I almost wanted to I almost wanted to firstly formalize that a a little bit, and the opportunity to to buy the dating business almost just came around left field. I was actually doing some consulting whilst starting a a a fitness supplement by subscription company. And I met the person who wanted some consulting to to, on on another business she owned.

And when I found out that she had this dating business, I was like, wow. This is amazing. Like, it was it it was profitable. It it wasn't really growing bored of it. And because we had previously played with some different tech products, I looked at the I looked at the business, and I was like, there's no recurring revenue.

This SEO is amazing. The site conversion is awful. Like, the the the the forum bay basically, the everything when I looked at it, I could I could fix. So much opportunity. So much opportunity.

And and I asked myself the question, like, what could we do different to the existing owners? And there was tons. There was tons where our our kind of hypothesis of what could be better was so derisked. It was like, we've just gotta buy this business. Was it like, you don't need to share the amount, but, like, how did you secure the funding to buy business?

So so we self funded it, and that was largely because of the money that I'd done from, from from the the paintball business Wow. But also just good deal structuring with the with the existing owner. So we actually guaranteed her the amount of profit she was taking out indefinitely. She maintained 10% of that business, and we basically bought 90% of the business for fair market value. And but we got a discount on that because of The art of benefits.

Her maintaining Yeah. You know, the profit share. The art of negotiation. What? Exactly.

Negotiation isn't about you getting the best. It literally is the best for both parties. True. Yeah. And, actually, I I I remember I was speaking to, a guy called Peter Dynes about about this.

And then three months later, I met him at an event, and he said, oh, what happened to the dating business? I said, oh, no. The deal fell over, and the deal fell over. And I was like, so, you know, it it's not happening. And he was like, mate, make it happen.

It's it's fallen over, and it's not happening because you've not yet made it happen. And I was like, okay. Yep. So I just I, like, picked up back the phone. I just made the deal happen.

And and it's just bits like that. Like Wake up call. It's just such a wake up call. And and that that's true in so many guy. Sorry.

Who's this? A guy called Peter. I must admit, I've not been in touch with him for a very long time, but he he sits very favorably in my head. He's a really, really great guy. To him.

I'm sure it will. Yeah. Ahead of him. Sorry. Who is he?

What was He he was basically, a kind of mentor in the Birmingham entrepreneurship space. So so he was really successful within his businesses. And I I've got so many of these great mentors that that, have kind of, like, passed through in in my life and have really gone kind of been massively impactful for me. Created these sliding doors moments. Right?

And it kinda goes back to what you're saying with the people you surround yourself with. Oh, interesting. Literally, if he hadn't just challenged you in then, he could have just let that Yeah. By the wayside. Yeah.

I wouldn't have been a professional toy boy. You know? That's like so so, anyway, so I wish you could have been so different. Well, true. And and so so, basically, when when that opportunity came about, and going back to your point about, you know, portfolio business and different different ways in, I was still massively ambitious, and I still really wanted to kind of, like, learn and grow and adapt.

The the dating business was a great opportunity, but it didn't satisfy the full ambition of what I wanted to achieve. Mhmm. So at that point, we decided to buy that within a group and was called Turn Partners. Mhmm. So that was the the seed of saying, okay.

Well, look. Let's let's turn this business around, but we don't wanna be the toy boys. Right? Like, that's not our destiny. Interestingly, I think that that was a bit of a mechanic that addressed the fear and, that that we were talking about before because the success and failure in the brand and everything of Torgo Warehouse then was almost one step removed from Mike Bander as the entrepreneur.

It sounds. It really does. Right? Linked to your own identity. Exactly.

And and, actually, I I I believe that. I've always believed that. Entrepreneurship is a ladder. The businesses we start today is not the businesses that will define us, not the businesses we run tomorrow or in the future, But it helps us see the next step of what we're doing and and build knowledge and skills and understanding. We were able to turn around the dating business, and we did like an we did like an it was insane.

It it was like quadruple digit percentage changes. It was it was mental, the growth that we did. But that was only because we previously toyed with some other businesses, and we just knew things that that would work. Right? We weren't geniuses, didn't it?

SM: It just goes to show, doesn't it? Like, if somebody else has identified this gap in the market, they've got something that they've kind of tried and tested, it's working, and then just bring someone else in to kind of power it up, is so interesting and exciting. You mentioned entrepreneurship is a ladder. We are on the same wavelength because, literally, I was gonna come on to that as well.

Is that to do with what you call kind of the effectual thinking? Expand on that.

MB: Yeah, so this is my this is one of my core tenets of how I like to operate and how to operate from an entrepreneurship perspective. So effectual thinking is is a type of thinking. It's not necessarily a framework or a process where you would think in this way and come up with a business idea, but it is often applied to early stage entrepreneurship. Now most people start a business by designing the goal, and we're told have these goals, what's it gonna be, what's your exit strategy, and then you basically work out everything you need to achieve that goal, Get all of the resources, the skills, the everything, and you just power through and you're resilient, and you go and you go.

So when we started our our fitness supplement company-

SM: What happened with that? Was that a success or failure?

MB: It was like a difficult success. It didn't fail. But that was a failure for what we needed.

So we ended up closing that because, actually, it it was we we had focused too much on the model, the business model, and on the customers. But we we kind of run that project for about nine months. We made some money in it, and we made a call that it wasn't gonna go. But in that process, we said, I wanna do a fitness supplement company by subscription. This is when Grey's box and all of the other subscriptions were coming out.

So we're like, amazing. It was a perfect model. Design that out. What do we need in order to do that? We need a protein supplier. We need a brand. We need marketing. We need this. We need that.

And we basically look, built a plan of what we need, and then we just went through it. Okay. So what's this? What's and and that's how most people start a business. Yeah.

But that is called causal logic, and that is the opposite of effectual logic. So if you wanna start a business using effectual thinking, forget everything that's logical and forget everything you know. And it's almost the opposite. So instead of starting with a goal in mind, you try not to have a goal. You try not to think about what you're building or how you're going.

And and the the true art of effectual thinking is you you don't have a goal for as long as possible within the first part of that procedure. Mhmm. But you start with your bird in hand. What do you know? Who are you? What do you love? Who is around you? All of these things. And you slowly start to get an understanding of of of what you are able to do and what accesses you have. And then you can always build these self selecting, like, network of stakeholders. So instead of spotting the competition and being like, okay.

We're gonna go against them, look at the market that you know and your understanding and try and try and see how you can work with them and and and kind of complement them or or whatever that may be. Yeah. And then another really critical principle within effectual thinking is work out your affordable loss. So every time we start a new project, this might be a macro, a new business, or even a project within a business. We say, what can we have to lose assuming that this current direction is a complete failure?

And that is lost in terms of time on a calendar, time in a day, money, health, you know, like social, anything you have rather than what is your expected return. Because we've all done it where we've put a, I'm gonna buy a widget for a pound, sell it for 2. You put it on Excel. You drag it to the millionth cell, and you're like, I'm gonna be a millionaire. Right?

I'm gonna be a millionaire. So so, actually, you just gone, and and you're just like, well, okay. It doesn't quite matter that it's taken me six years now because I'm going for the widget. Whereas you work on what's your affordable loss. Yeah.

And if you hit that affordable loss, you can then take a step back and you can say, well, look. Do do I wanna put more affordable loss into this, or actually is that is that right? So is affordable loss the same as cost benefit analysis in economics similar? It's it's it's similar, but it's but it's more around everything about you as an entrepreneur. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because it also has the opportunity cost of you as a founder. Right.

It has, you know, the the time in the evening. Like Yeah. Yeah. And and, actually, what it enables you to do is it enables you to say, okay. Well, look.

My affordable loss on this business means I have to start it in a certain way. Mhmm. If you can't afford to give up your evenings or weekends and you can't give up your salary, that's fine. Maybe you go into it in a slightly different way. Or or, actually, maybe that means you have to raise investment from day one and and you raise off a deck.

So it doesn't mean you can't do it. It just narrows your scope where innovation can really happen. Yeah. That makes sense. And helps just kinda, like, remove some of the other options to help you kinda reach a decision in the process.

Yeah. Interesting. So so there's a few other pieces of actual thinking, but but, actually, perhaps I'll give an example which might make it a bit a bit easier. So so when we had Hopper HQ, we we still weren't in the business today, but when we were really gunning that business in the early days, we had thousands of people, businesses on Instagram, thousands of influencers. They trusted us.

They connected their social, that, you know, that we we were like the voice. We had domain knowledge, domain expertize, expertise. And we started to see that some of our brands were advertising on some of our influencer accounts, and this is the very early days of influencer marketing. We were like, that's kind of interesting because they both know us, and we know them, and there's money transacting. So we actually went to some of our brand accounts, and we said, hey.

Do you wanna do you wanna get some influencers? And we'll do that. And they were like, okay. And then we went to some of our influencers, and we're like, hey. Do you wanna post this for them and and get paid for it?

And they were like, okay. And literally overnight, like, I kid you not overnight, we we were like, oh, we're an influencer agency now. Right. And we spun up this side business called RealTribe, and we actually brought someone in to run the business. And within two weeks, we were the we're allusive influencer marketing agency for Uber in The UK and Ireland.

Uber. And then we just sacked on other other clients. And we're like, that is effectual. Because the key thing is if other people could and did start influencers agencies in that time, but none of them would have been able to do it as fast as possible. Working with the end in mind as opposed to jumping on the opportunity.

It's it's it's more about it's more about pulling together this pulling together the things that you already have. Yeah. Because if we if we wanted to start an you know, you've got the ice ice bars. Right? We can come up with that idea here.

Right. We say we're gonna start an ice hotel. Right. And we'll make it happen. Right?

We we're smart people. We'll make it happen. Right. But think about all the things we need to do. Yeah.

And if you look at the people who actually started the ice hotel Yeah. Which started in 1989 in the international ice carving competition in Reykjavik Mhmm. When the people who were organizing the travel didn't have enough hotels for their international ice carving teams. And one of the teams from Japan said, hey. It doesn't matter.

We're actually just gonna we're just gonna take some of this and and create some igloos. Had to be the Japanese. Of cool. Very industrious. And and they got some they got some, like, animal hides and skins.

And and the people who slept outside in the igloos woke up and all, like, that was the best night sleep I've ever had. So the next year, more things are saying, we wanna stay in those. And then that slowly evolved into the ice hotel. But if you think about that, they are against all of that. You can't go in.

You think they are they are the world's best international experts in ICE linked to the international, like, tourism board of Iceland where there is ICE. You know, you you put all of that together. It just goes, I don't know. Let alone the thirty plus years of, like, building brand reputation and all the rest of it. So so so that means that even if we started at the same time Mhmm.

The other team who by the way, that's that is very effectual Mhmm. They will win. Mhmm. And that doesn't mean that you can't start a business. It means what is your effectual business to start?

Yeah. Okay. So a couple of things come to mind. So number one, especially more on the first part, does mirror what we teach at one day as well as some of the modules. And there's, like, a specific master classes, like, founder idea fit, and it is looking at start with what you have, which actually links to a mutual friend of ours, Jodie Cook, who talks about playing your ace cards.

And there's something in that as well, which I'll try not to digress too much, but there's something in how we severely overlook the stuff that's easy to us just because it is easy to us. You often it's a blind spot. I it. In in order to know what what you're great at Yeah. You actually have to ask you have to ask other people.

Right. Because it's just so easy for you. I I I will be with some friends who are just amazing at maths, and I'll be like Don't even realize. They don't even know because they're just good at maths. Right?

Like But it's also the point with this specifically is feeling there's almost like satisfaction that does come from, you know, an element of pain. Right? Like, there is, like, running a a marathon. Again, using, like, that great example there. There's almost like there's, again, the physical example is just the best to bring it to life is there's a good but bad kinda aching feeling in your muscles when you've had a good workout.

Mhmm. Right? To bring that to life to most people. And it's the same concept here personally with business. There's almost as kind of like sweet victory, you know, when you've had to work for it.

So there's something in with tied up within the first part of effectual thinking, which is starting with one day what we call the founder idea fit, which is what do you already know who have you already plugged into? Who your network because even your network's new communities, you could easily take for granted as well. Yeah. So many people, it's like, wait. Like, not everyone has so and so on speed dial.

Yeah. You do. Yeah. Message them. Like, you know?

So there's that I just wanted to comment on. And then the great example you shared with Hopper and that example of effectual thinking of kind of seizing an opportunity, you've got everything there. My counterargument to that is the lack of focus Mhmm. That a lot of style and especially if they are kinda ADHD sprinting kinda entrepreneurial types. What would you say to that?

Kinda the the difference to try and sort of distinguish between the effectual thinking, the seizing an opportunity, bring all these things together versus not getting distracted. So, great, Paul. I think that I I I've given that example of a hopper starting another business because it's easy to understand your thinking on how we can can discover a business that we should start rather than you design a business that that you should start. Yeah. However, effectual thinking is can can be used as an approach to thinking when you don't have any business, and it can also be used when you're looking at at specific projects or ideas internally.

So it doesn't actually have to be a separate business. It could be we want to increase our average revenue per user in a SaaS business. Okay. Cool. Well well, let's look at our effectual map.

Who do we know? We have our customers. We can get customer intimacy with them. What what products can we build? Well, actually, we've got really good well, so for Hopper, for example, we we run some tests and it and it didn't take off, but it was very effectual, where we had an a lot of design talent internally.

So, actually, we knew a lot of our our businesses needed some some actual posts for their social media. So, actually, we were like, okay. Cool. Well, look. If the biggest biggest issue for you to become activated in Hopper is knowing what to post, then we'll do the basic strategy for you, and we'll design the post and do whatever else.

So so for a while, we kind of had that as a as a feature bolt on. Mhmm. And and you to your point, that was a bit too much of a distraction and and pulled away in that part. But it but sometimes it's not. You know?

And and and sometimes even in the the the the features we build internally, the services we create, they can be applied with an effectual thinking, that that brings that alignment and and gives us the reason why we would win as opposed to other people. It's kind of that low hanging fruit, isn't it? It's all these times that come to mind. Yeah. Yeah.

Saying your race car, the low hanging fruit. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's really but but if anyone is interested in this, definitely look up effectual thinking, and and perhaps we'll put some links in the show notes as well where where I I I would encourage people to to kind of explore it and and try and live in that space. Yeah.

It's one of those things you see and you're like, oh, yeah. That makes sense. But then there's another layer of being like, okay. I'm gonna I'm gonna be effective. Because it is uncomfortable.

Sure. Right? It's uncomfortable to be like, I don't really know. I'm figuring it out. Yeah.

What I'm sort of And that is great. That's, like, ask what are you doing. I'll let you know. Yeah. It's it's counter it's counter to what to what, a lot of what we know.

And that does link back to our earlier comments not to be, like, bashing our own home turf here, but the British culture as well. You know, it doesn't really help with that either. Mhmm. It doesn't help with, like, oh, okay. Like, we don't have that same source of heyday Silicon Valley Yeah.

Yeah. Entrepreneurial energy of, like, okay. Cool. Like, you'll figure it out. Yeah.

You know, that there really is something to be said for that American, like, the American dream. For sure. I think I think Or, there's more of it now than ever in in The UK, but I think you need to find it more. Yeah. Whereas I feel like so culturally, it's not it's not at the surface, but the communities do exist.

Yeah. Yeah. I appreciate you putting a bit of a silver lining. No. No.

I don't know. Yeah. You know. The UK. We're not.

We're not. We're still here. We haven't flown off to Dubai yet. Mike, my penultimate question to you before my traditional closing question is given your wealth of experience across entrepreneurship, your own businesses, as well as teaching entrepreneurs, What's a common trap so many founders fall into? I would say I'm laughing.

I had a conversation the other day where someone I said, oh, what what what do you do? Oh, like, I run a business. I'm like, oh, cool. What do you do in the business? No.

I'm CEO, chief everything officer. That's gonna be how I introduced my last guest. Oh, really? Okay. Well Carry on with this question.

You've got the slate. That's okay. Don't worry. I I feel He doesn't care. It's fine.

I I feel like when you're cheap when you have that mindset of being chief ever the way I would translate that is, so you're the bottleneck. That's exactly where I was going with the question. Yeah. Yeah. And and I feel like Yeah.

As founders, it is our responsibility to do the explore work, find new ways to do new things. Chief explorer officer. Oh, that works. That's better. But, crucially, once you found out those new ways, once you found out new, you know, places to buy things, channels to sell things, ways to speak to customers, we then basically need to turn that into a core piece of work.

And by core, I mean, we wanna document, we wanna systemize, we wanna delegate that. So we're building the foundation that the systemization behind our business so we can remove ourselves to then go and do the next higher level work. And a lot of people do not do that. They become the bottleneck. They some some people get attached to the ego of it because, you know, I'm wearing all the hats.

It's like wear the hats, but pass them on. Right. Right. And if you're ready to scale up your business and stop being the bottleneck, then check out waybook.com. I mean, you you joke, but, actually, the the reason why I That's making a lot of sense.

Well, the reason why I love Waybook is because I've seen that. Right? Like, I felt that. I get it. There's no way that we would have been able to have, you know, used one business to grow the other to grow and and and now, you know, we're we're we're a we're a relatively decent sized group bootstrapped.

Yeah. It's because we've systemized Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No.

I get it. Documented. Yeah. No. I'm I'm only half taken.

No. No. I love it. I, I'm also I've noticed how, is meta the right word? I'm not sure.

But how certain business especially somebody like you who's had so many, like, such a serial entrepreneur, how so many businesses kinda come out of, like, other businesses and almost like and aside from the main so I guess, like, Slack is the best example of this where Slack was born out of this game. Started out as a video game. The developers going because it's going back as well, needed a very fast, lean, efficient way to communicate with each other. Hence, because they're all developers, gamers, they're all these kind of tech geeks, built the separate thing to it, and then that became Slack. And then she realized, oh my god.

That's kind of these I can't I don't know what the word is I'm looking for. I'll tell you what the word is. Yeah. Peace. It's effectual.

Oh. That that's effectual. Yeah. Like, that is an effect that is an effect to to spin Slack out. Fair to describe Waybook in this instance as effectual from all of you discovering the bottleneck.

So, yes. I I think I think it's more effectual than what it sounds on on that part. So so it wouldn't be effectual necessarily or or wholly for me to say, I have this problem and I solved it. But what makes it actually effectual is we used our team from Hopper to then build Waybook. So we and and we had great network of of similar sized businesses that we were targeting.

So we had the pain. Yes. We had the ability to make it. Uh-huh. We had the skill sets internally.

We had the access to the market. So those things are quite effectual. And and and, actually, the the Hopper team was the team that built that built Weibo, and and many of them, some went back to Hopper, and and many of them are actually now full time Weibo. Book. So Are you writing a book called the effectual entrepreneur?

Do you know what? I'm not. But that's because I I'm I'm not very good at writing. So you get ghost writer. We could get that sorted.

I thought it has a book in it. Do you know what? I do I talk about it so much. I talk about, I should and and do you know what? Every I I I onboarded two people in our business this this week, and one of our values is think effectually.

Every I ask people so much, like, do you do you know effectual thinking? I asked so many people. No one ever knows about it. Exactly. No one ever knows about it.

Exactly. And and and there's quite limited information on it. So Very good. So yeah. It's Not as if you're busy enough.

I know. Something else to do. That that's the other downside of of of doing multiple things. It is it is a trap as well. Right?

And and, actually, this kind of bias to action, ambition is is about knowing it's about knowing where to to apply focus. And and is where the loss assessment comes in as well. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly.

As part as a part of the physical thinking. Wow. Okay. Right. I've maybe I've written it already.

Maybe I've written it. Can I also just sorry? I did say before. It was a pronouncement question a few questions ago. But, you mentioned kind of revenue generating, being so successful with the paintballing business that you had enough profits to then put into this, like, acquisition of Toy Boy, and you had kind of, you know, the deal structuring and everything else.

Have you ever had to get investment for your other businesses? No. Has it always been reinvesting? Yeah. That's incredible.

We had we had a grant once from, Wow. But but we had a 100 a $100 grant, early on. But that was kind of actually, that was in in hopper time. But, no, everything else has been bootstrapped. So impressive.

It's painful. It's it's impressive now, but it was painful. Painful. I mean, it's like, like, choose your poison as well. It's so true. Because It's so true. You know, it's also painful to fundraise. Deal with investors. You know what?

This has always been one well, two two reasons why I've never wanted to raise. One of them was I never wanted to raise speculatively and be a part of somebody else's game. You look at you look at how investment works. And I invest in quite a few other businesses. You don't expect them all to work. Right. I expect my businesses to work. And if that doesn't work, I'll pivot and I'll make it work. And and I didn't wanna be the nine out of 10 that didn't work. So so that particularly early on, because I didn't want to you know, I see this as my craft, right, my career. And and so I didn't wanna be like, oh, you know, chance that it's not gonna work.

And I know people who raise don't think that, but the people who invest do. Oh, I get it. So so that that's number one. The the second reason was I basically, we we made decisions early on that enabled us to be quite efficient and and and we we realized that money doesn't solve all of the problems. Yeah.

So actually doesn't. It really don't. Particularly in SaaS. Like, you basically put in good things and apply time. Mhmm.

So, yes, SaaS, you can acquire more customers. You can do things. We had an affordable loss for, for Hopper. So so we had, like, a I think it was originally, like, a, an $80 affordable loss, and then we we put that up to maybe, like, 150. And and that that was what we were is on this new project, and it turned out to be well.

We spent a lot more in Waybook. So our affordable loss was 1,200,000.0. We ended up going just a bit over that, but now we're profitable and and and and in a good position. But that affordable loss at that level basically meant that we weren't bootstrapped. Right?

Because it because we funded the business. However, what what I noticed between turning around the the day in business with almost nothing, starting Hopper with $1.60 and starting Weibo with about 1.2, you become become too relaxed. Like, we we we we unnecessarily spent money on things earlier on and and tests. We we we tried to we tried to scale it before we nailed it. And we had an inefficiency of money that we would've that that we wouldn't have had if we had less money.

And I'm pretty sure we would've got there anyway. Right? Yeah. So nail it then scale it is a principle I love and I live by. Right.

And I think that having more money, particularly particularly if it's other people's money, you don't necessarily do that early on. With you. And I can see the diagram in the book. Nail it. Yeah.

I can I can Well, I did a little bit of research? Someone else's. Is it? Oh, okay. That's someone else's. That's incredible. I think that's from the Startup Genome, I believe.

SM: Mike, that's amazing. So much food for thought. I wanna ask you as well, just thinking about the different scales, and and I appreciate you sort of sharing some figures on that to really sort of paint a picture of the difference between even, say, like, Hopper to Wayboook. How have you had to change as a founder and CEO of businesses at such different levels? Have you had to go through your own sort of shift in levelling up in that process? I probably should've, I probably should've done. I don't I don't know if I have. I saw this I saw this brilliant meme on on social the other day where it was it was someone speaking to their team, and and they were like, and and the caption was when you're spilling tea at work and you realise you're the boss. And I'm like, oh, that resonated so hard with me. I'm like, I definitely I have such a great friendship relation. Not what yeah.

Relationship, let's say, with with my team. And and the culture is amazing. And and what's great about that is is aligned to the success of the business. Yeah. People do really hard, really great work because they care about the business succeeding, because we care I I care about the business succeeding.

But, also, we care about everybody doing their best work and being in their best their best faces for that. So as as the team's grown a a little bit more, I am aware that particularly for for some for for some people in different cultures and and and different, you know, time zones and ages, that I am actually now a little bit more, I guess, senior to them than what I think I am. Yeah. So, actually, I can't be as much of a clown as what I I well, I am. So so that's so that's one thing, but but that kind of all just comes in like less of a clown.

Slightly less of a clown. And then I think the other I think the other thing, and this has really, turned into matching my ambition, is that from day one, startup has always been my hobby. Yeah. And and I used to be a bit embarrassed about I'm like, what are your hobbies? And I'll be like, oh, okay.

I bet I'm I better say that I like football, but, like, I don't. Actually, I should love it. Right? Like, business is my is my hobby. The content I watch is, like, the CNBC videos on how businesses are made and things like that. It's nerdy. I know.

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