Stuart Trevor, Founder of AllSaints: Starting, Scaling and Surpassing Setbacks

Strategy & Tragedy: CEO Stories with Steph Melodia is the best business podcast for curious entrepreneurs featured in the UK's Top 20 charts for business shows.

Hosted by Stephanie Melodia, Strategy & Tragedy features candid interviews with entrepreneurs who have scaled - and failed - their businesses - sharing their lessons in entrepreneurship along the way. From Simon Squibb of 'What's Your Dream?' Internet fame to Lottie Whyte of Sunday Times Top 100 Fastest-Growing company, MyoMaster. From exited founders like Nick-Telson Sillett to subject matter experts like Alex Merry in the public speaking arena and Matt Lerner, the GOAT of Growth.

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In this week's episode, Stephanie Melodia interviews Stuart Trevor, the founder of AllSaints, the high street brand he launched in 1994 and scaled to £15M turnover business & household brand name. Now, the fashion entrepreneur is on a mission to create the world’s most sustainable fashion brand, a clothing brand that doesn't produce any clothes. Discover more here.

Watch on YouTube via the link below or keep reading for the transcript, where Steph and Stuart cover:

• His journey from fashion student to AllSaints founder

• How creative constraints led to an *iconic* brand identity

• Organic growth without traditional investment

• Surviving a near-fatal business crisis

• ADHD as an entrepreneurial superpower

• Stuart's mission now for sustainable fashion - building "the world's most sustainable fashion brand that doesn't produce any clothes"

SM: My first question to you, I have to ask, what does Stuart Trevor think of my outfit??

ST: Oh, I love it, actually.

SM: I wore this for you.

ST: I thought so when I turned up, but, I I yeah. I've kind of always had this, obsession with, sort of band jackets and rock and roll and leopard skin and, you know, and you've got it all there.

SM: Yeah. Exactly.

ST: It's kind of, yeah. I I was doing, a talk the other day. It was for an interview, and they asked me about, you know, what inspires you, what, you know, to to come up with AllSaints or, you know, before that, Reiss and now Stuart Trevor. And and it was my teenage self because I grew up in a period. The greatest years of music, rock and roll, and punk, pop music and, post punk, all the clothes that every week I had friends that were a skinhead one week, and they were a new romantic about two weeks later when they'd grown their hair and then they were like a soul boy a year later or whatever.

SM: Yeah. Well, I'm glad you said teenage stuff because I leaned into my teenage self. I had to dust out some of these items from from the back of the wardrobe. I think, 19 year old staff would be proud of of what I'm wearing. I'm being sad to see you here today. So this is an incredible pleasure, Stuart.

Alright. I know that you are on a mission to build the world's most sustainable fashion brand, which we're gonna hear all about.

But first, we need to rewind the clocks back to 1994, age just 28. You set out and launched All Saints after being David Reiss's right hand man, and that is David Reiss of r e i s s, Reiss fashion brand.

What does this young fashion designer know about business?

ST: At 28 or well, at 28, I'd had ten years, working for David. And actually, when I joined him, I was 18 years old. I was in the second year of a degree at Nottingham Trent. I just won the Smirnoff Fashion Awards. I was a finalist in a Paul Smith Mont Blanc competition. A group of us had just won student menswear design awards, but that's all student life. And then I was thrown at the deep end by David Reiss because he saw me on TV. It was televised, this Smirnoff Fashion Awards, and he drove me insane. He'd called the college, the uni 14 times. They made me go and see him. I'd already been offered a job at Paul Smith, but, they made me go and see him, as, you know, on behalf of the college or university in Nottingham. And I went down to see him, and he gave me an envelope of £500 and a and a ticket to Italy. And he put me on the spot on the plane. I agreed to go because he said to me:

"Do you know what? The best thing is you don't have to tell Paul Smith."

So, which I suddenly thought, I'm looking at the £500, and I'm looking at the ticket to to Italy, and I'd never really been abroad before. And I thought and he'd said things like you're you're gonna eat at the best restaurants in town. You're gonna stay at the best hotel in the world. You're gonna go the number one menswear fair in the world. You're gonna go to the best fabric for fabric meals in the world. And he and I did. And I it it was an eye opener, and I ended up working with him for ten years. And I helped him take the company from insolvency. To 50,000,000 in that ten year time ten year period.

SM: Incredible. I just wanna jump in here and just kind of underscore for viewers. Like, £500 in 1994 is equivalent to say well, before then because that's when you launched AllSaints, sorry, so this is ten years before that.

ST: It's worth about 5k today.

SM: I was gonna say maybe 2-3, but going further back, yes. So this was a real sliding doors moment for you. You could have gone on a whole different trajectory if you went and worked for Paul Smith, right?

ST: Yeah. Seriously. I think about it often because I also when I was at least, I got offered to go to go Joseph was was super cool back then, a really cool London label, run by a guy called Joseph Ettedgui. He passed away now, but they were super cool stores. They had all the, you know, rock stars and pop stars would go shopping there. They would sell all the top labels. And I was offered the job as as buyer, and I turned that down when I was at Reiss. And I have no idea now when I look at it because I I had no money, no, the way that I had of funding All Saints at that time.

I but I knew that if I was gonna leave Reisss, I wanted to to do it to to launch my own brand. And somehow, I managed to persuade a factory, production company to fund it, and and I launched it.

SM: And the rest is history. We're gonna dive in. You mentioned you took Reiss from insolvency to 50,000,000 -incredible. Obviously, even more so with All Saints.

So what lessons did you take from Reiss to All Saints?

Like, what were the I know that you were by a fashion design, more creative. Was there anything on the business side during that growth trajectory that could set you up for success with All Saints?

ST: I think I learned from David Reiss personally about, you know, drive and determination and about, you know, failure and success and about never giving up and, you know, really striving to be the best and and to produce things, that would that was mainly me, not him, but producing the the best quality, most amazing garments that you can for as little as possible and selling them for as much as possible.

So margins and, you know, making sure that you were earning, you know, the right margins on on the product and and that you went out at the right price because Rees was always known and still is probably as it's not it's not designer prices. It's it's affordable Yeah. Luxury. Yeah. It's really beautifully made or well made.

Now it's not not as great as it used to be. When I joined it, it was we we did all the production, virtually all of it in Italy, and the fabric qualities were, you know, the best fabric wheels in the world. Yeah. And, but but we we could afford to buy really expensive cloths because we were selling direct to the consumer. We weren't you know, when designers generally work, they have to buy something, you know, buy cloth at £10 a meter, pay £20 to make the garment.

It's £40. They would wholesale it for a £100 because they have to double up at least. And then the department stores times everything by three. So something would be £300 that cost about £40. But whereas if you're selling it direct into your own stores or now with Stuart Trevor direct online Mhmm.

To the consumer, you could buy something for £40 and sell it for 150. Mhmm. And it's not because we want it to be cheap. It's because a £150 is a lot of money. I mean, I to me, you know, a £150.

Some I've had people in the past say to me, remember back in the All Saints days, designer friend of mine saying the the only reason you are successful is because you're cheap. And I was like, no. That's nice. I said, well, why do you think we're why do you think I'm cheap? And he said, well, how much are your leather jackets?

And remember, this is about twenty five years ago. We were 250 or £300 for a leather jacket. Yeah. And he went, see, it's cheap. And I said, that's that's not that cheap, is it?

He said, it is to me. He said, my jacket's wholesale at £300. Wow. I said, well, how many have you sold? Well, we haven't sold any, but, I know.

I'm like, £300 to me is a lot of money. If you go to the cash point, take £300 out Yeah. Yeah. If I ask you to go that and do that, would could you can you go and do that? And he said, well, I haven't got it.

I said, no. Neither do I. So £300 is a lot of money. It's not cheap. For sure.

It's all very subjective to one person. It could be cheap, expensive. It's all kind of to do a different sort of levels and brand positioning. But I think, yeah, there is that. But the the the the brand position as well is what I I never ever wanted to sell to rich bankers.

I wanted to sell audience. To cool young bands or, you know It needs to have that affordability to be Yeah. I always think. So launching your own business at 28 years old, you mentioned the drive and determination that you learned from David Rees. You also mentioned some of the financials.

So, obviously, you had kind of that numbers bring to it as well. I wanna dive into this because not only are you setting up your own company, but you're also entering a highly competitive marketplace. So what were some of the other kinda tailwinds that helped you make All Saints what it is today eventually? Well, there was a gap in the market. Find finding what I thought was, you know, the the gap in the market that that, you know, producing something that no one else was doing.

I never ever understood why anybody would go and spend, you know, more money on on a very plain T shirt or a very plain jacket or a very plain coat or whatever. So I would always add something to it and make it kind of unique. I remember actually was talking about this with someone else. It like like the little frogging or or metal buttons or a turn up collar or contrast, you know, different little bits. I always would add something to it to make it kind of unique.

I remember people in the beginning saying to me, like, you know, how many people how many people dress like that? I mean, they used to think that All Saints was avant garde. Why? Because because it's all black. It's just black and gray.

That wasn't actually through choice. That was I used to put collections together with I used to always have one color. But in the beginning, I started out, I I would have lots of color, but people never bought it. People your first collection? Yeah.

What did it look like? So the first collection, I'd done a range for Reese, which was really successful. And when I went to launch All Saints, what I used to do is back in those days is, I would go to vintage military warehouses that have, you know, stock of flak jackets, pea coats, bomber jackets, fatigue combat pants, you know, parkers. And and I I got all these amazing vintage pieces, and I gave them to the factory. And I produced one collection of these items in nylon because nylon Prada had just come out with the the Prada bag.

It was 1994. Okay. It was the hottest bag in the world. Yeah. So I decided to do a whole collection in that nylon that Prada had used.

Mhmm. So I did parkers, bomber jackets, field jackets, pea coats, combat pants. And then I did it in moleskin, like a heavy cotton, brushed cotton. And it it just looked incredible. And and I'd done knitwear like mohair type jumpers that, similar to, you know, the seditionary's early punk sort of sex pistol sort of pieces.

And and they looked really cool. They looked really interesting. And and the collection was totally unique, but it worked so well because we had the nylon, and then you had the moleskin. Quick one. So sorry to interrupt.

So I'm sure that you are on the edge of your seat listening to this interview, at least I hope so. I'm so aware of all the other podcasts that are already out there. So the fact that you've decided to tune in and listen to this one is not lost on me. If you can just go that one step further and hit that follow or subscribe button, doesn't cost a thing. It takes two seconds.

Now is your chance to do that. It means so much. Really appreciate your support. Thank you so much. Now let's get back to the interview.

Amazing. So did you also launch with a physical store to begin with? No. Okay. No.

Back in those days, the world was a different place. So, generally, what you would do is launch a collection, show it at Paris Fashion Week was was the main one in order to get buyers. And we and I did that. We we showed that it it's like a static show where you turn up and you have the range of clothes. And and and and I remember setting up on on the day before the launch, and I didn't I I couldn't afford mannequins.

I just had nails, banged some nails in the wall, and I put hanger, and I put garments with, you know, like, a scarf around the neck, a pea coat, combat pants, and I put these military boots underneath. And we did, like, eight looks eight looks along the back wall. Yeah. And I remember at about 11:00 at night, the security guard coming over and saying, why? Come on, you guys.

And they turned the lights out, and they boot us out. And there was me and two young men over the road, and it was Dean and Dan Catto from Dsquared. Oh. They book they were also getting booted out Right. Because both of us.

And we I remember chatting to them and then asking them who they were, and they were Canadian. And we were saying, oh, and it was the launch of d squared, and it was the launch of All Saints on the same day opposite each other. And we both said, oh, well, good luck tomorrow, and, you know, let let's let's hopefully, by this time tomorrow night, we'll we'll be laughing, and it'll be good. We had no idea what it was gonna be like. We turned up at nine in the morning.

By 11:00, it was complete chaos. We had buyers from all over the world fighting to get on the booth, giving me their card from, you know, Louisa Villaroma, Browns, South Moulton Street, Selfridges, Harrods, all going and it was because of these outfits that we'd put on the wall and because they'd stayed and done a similar sort of thing. We stood out more than and there was the only two people that were busy were d squared and All Saints. Incredible. It's how these constraints create these creative solutions.

Yeah. Right? Because you didn't have the funding, so you had to just kinda nail them to the wall. So on the financial side of things, you mentioned that getting this off the ground, you got backing from the first manufacturers. You did things on kind of a big borrower store on a dime, keeping it very sort of lean.

Did you then seek investment to get it to the next stage to open your first store? No. It was it was all organic. So and and and we we so we launched it, and we sold it to all of the best retailers in the world, including, like, Selfridges, Harrods, Harvey Nichols, Saks Fifth Avenue, Barneys, New York, Seibu in Tokyo and Hong Kong, Lane Crawford. And and and then you deliver it.

And then what happens when you deliver it? You're you have to produce I think we wrote something like 1 and a half million in the first season. Wow. That that weekend in Paris alone, we wrote over a million quid or something. Wow.

And, and but then when you deliver it, you always you realize that the factories have minimum quantities or the fabric mill has minimum, and you end up with stock. And then you don't know what to do with the stock. So we opened I opened the first shop. And the first shop was all bagged, borrowed, and steel. The the the fittings were things that I found in a skip, or from flea markets or from, you know, charity shops and and and things.

How people used to say to me years and, you know, over the years, where did you come up for the interiors for All Saints? Because it never no one had ever had this sort of semi derelict looking shop with with a rusty sort of rail and and hooks hanging out the wall. It was all things I'd found in a skip. We they looked like that because we didn't have any money. That is hilarious.

Heads or the sewing machine? The sewing machines were a factory in India that were chucking them out. And I he he I came to inspect the factory. There was about a 100 machines all piled up. The guy was really embarrassed.

Oh, I'm so sorry. Please don't look at these machines. I've got got all the latest Japanese machines in there. I'm like, well, what are you gonna do with them? And and he's going, oh, this scrapper man is coming to collect these machine.

I'm like, right. I'm gonna so I shipped them back to London. And, originally, I just had a void in in a shop. I was opening a shop in Longacre. It was one of the last stores, and it had a big void between the First Floor and the and the basement about 40 foot wall.

So I just made scaffolding and put the sewing machines in a frame, and and we created this sort of artwork. And it became it just became it was It became iconic, Stuart, is what it became. And this is such a hilarious story of how this kind of happy accident Yeah. Came about and fit the brand. I think it was all to do with, you know, Instagram had just come out, whatever, and people wanted to be photographed and Yeah.

Post it of Cool backgrounds. And it looked such cool background. Beautiful. Wow. So so far in the story, I feel like there's been kind of a lot of tailwinds, a lot of right time, right place.

It's all sounding very positive at the moment. Or at least you're kinda making, you know, lemonade from lemons in some of these situations. What was your first real setback where that drive and determination you learned from David Rees had to come into play? There was there's there's I mean, yes. Some people say to me things that, oh, it's alright for you.

You found it all safe. It's like as if it was, you know Easy. Easy. There there's trials and errors and tribulations all the way through. The the very beginning, registering the name alone, I was told that, the NFL, the National Football League in America, would object.

And so I wrote a letter to them, made an appointment to meet the, CEO of, NFL Europe, went to their offices, showed them what I was doing, and he fell in love with it and said, basically, as long as you don't do American football shirts, I'm fine with it. Like, you have my blessing. Is that because there's a team called the Saints? Saints, and there's Oh. Yeah.

There's there's Right. Couple of difference. But they could have put the blockers on it. And a lot of people would just go, oh, well, you know, I'll have to come up with another name, but I wasn't gonna take no Where did their name come from then? So why are you so committed to All Saints?

Well, my initials are s t. Mhmm. So like the saint. Yeah. And when I was about 20 years old, my grandfather passed away and left me, like, £5,000.

And I I went, well, basically found a car in Arizona when I was went over to see my parents. It's the car that Simon Templar. Roger Moore played this character called Simon Simon Templar Right. The saint in a TV series. It was before he became James Bond, and it was a James Bond type character.

And this car is unbelievably cool. And I bought that car, on New Year's Eve in 1988 or '9, and I drove it to LA, and I shipped it back to London. I used to drive that car every day for twenty years, and everybody used to go, oh, it's the same. It's the same. So when I had to come up with a pseudonym for my myself, because I had a Chinese partner, I didn't want it to be my name because I, you know, didn't want to have the Chinese manufacturer owning 50% of my name.

So I wanted a pseudonym. So I I had a list of the saint saint, mister saint, and I was on All Saints Road during carnival, Notting Hill carnival, had a few drinks, looked up. I thought All Saints. That sounds really cool. Actually, all if if if you were to ask where's that jacket from, All Saints rolls off the tongue a lot easier than the Saints.

So I registered the name All Saints and and then yeah. What a cool story. I love that. So you mentioned about almost, like, the name not even existing as a first setback. Were there any other real songs that you had to In 1997, Hong Kong was, handed back to China.

And the Chinese manufacturer, who was my partner, had never expected the business to to we would I think we were, by that point, doing 4 or 5,000,000 turnover. And they had funded it all by loans, unbeknown to me from property that they owned in Hong Kong. And after '97, all the property market in Hong Kong devalued by 50. Mhmm. So all of a sudden, they wanted the money back, and they came after me for the money.

They sent me £250,000 management fee letters and invoices. I was like, what's this? They're like, you know, you have to pay it. We have to pay the bank. And we're like, we've we they they could see we were just about breaking even.

But because we were expanding, we'd opened three or four stores by then, and we we didn't have £250,000 to to, you know, hand over. So they they were like, you know, I think that six months later, there was another one. So we now had invoices for 500,000. And then the then third one came out. There was 700 and fifth.

I'm not we haven't got any money. Where do you think you actually are doing the accounts. Where they're going you're not gonna have to stop paying everyone. And I was like, like who? We were making part of the production in The UK.

There were Italian fabric mills, but there were, you know, HMRC in The UK. There were landlords. And, of course, you can't preferentially pay any of them. You can't just pay all the money to him Yeah. Or them.

That's illegal. So I I had to go to seek advice, and they basically said the company's insolvent. You're gonna have to, you know, you wanna get rid of them anyway. So so we had to, basically, go and liquidate the business. But I started again the following day.

I got a business partner in who used to run Reese when I was at Reese. He came in, put a bit of money in. I had a silent partner, put a bit of money in. So there weren't when you ask for a back were there any investors, it was a small investment from these two people, but they were one of them was, you know, a day to day running of the business Sure. Working alongside me, so I think Real partnership.

And we took what we had, and we ran with it. We carried on trading under the name All Saints. We were convinced that the Chinese were gonna say, well, we own the name or whatever or, but they didn't. And after, I think, a period of four or five years or might be three, I can't remember, we we could then claim the rights to trade under that name because we had been trading under that name, and nobody had objected. So Wow.

So, yeah, there's a lot of people don't know any of this. This is why this is why the show exists. Right? Oh, amazing. Strategy and tragedy exclusive.

You heard this here first. Well, that's, you know, hence the name of the show. Right? The reality. You see the All Saints stores with their sewing machines in the windows.

Wow. It goes out with this fashion brand, but, actually, the realities of what goes behind the scenes. So I appreciate you sharing that and giving us exclusive. That really does sound like a much more existential threat to the business as opposed to, you know, some silly yanks threatening the brand name. Right?

Yeah. Great. What did that during that moment in time, again, casting our mind back to this kind of late nineties period in the story, like, what's going through your mind? Like, you're lying in bed at night. I don't know how much sleep you're getting at this point.

You must be stressing. How, like I've been how did you keep going? I was still quite young then. I I didn't really Didn't overthink it? No.

I never really I I have quite severe ADHD, I think, as well. We're gonna come on to that too. Yeah. I none of it is just water off a duck's back. Do you know what I mean?

It's it's and, also, at that period, I I I I've never wasn't in it for the money. I wasn't in it for I just wanted to create something really cool Yeah. Amazing. And felt like as if that was what I was born to do. So, yeah, the it's just another another annoying thing that that you have to sort out.

So So the idea didn't cross your mind of, like, packing in and getting a job, and it'll be so much easier if you don't have to deal with this. Did that not even, like, cross your mind? No. I used to think who who I would just think who who would employ me, but, I mean I just asked you, but I don't know. No.

Well, I you know, I did manage ten years under working with David, but, so I don't and and I'm I'm very easy to go on with, but, I don't know whether or not can you imagine? I did one of the reasons I left Rees and and started All Saints is is I was sick of arguing with David because he was an older gentleman wearing, you know, very nice navy blazer, Ralph Lauren shirt and tie, chinos, and and Baswegian loafers. More preppy. I wanted this sort of preppy. I wanted to do this sort of rock and roll.

Imagine going and working for someone else and having to argue with them every day about I always I like. I always use the analogy when you start your first business. It's like leaving home for the first time. It's like once you've left home and you have to fend for yourself and eat what you want and so and have that freedom, how are you gonna go back and live under your parents' roof again? Right?

Do you keep getting that sense from you? After I sold Allstate, I did another brand called Bollingard Shopping. And when I sold that, I had a five year hiatus period. I started mentoring young brands that have a positive social environmental impact, including a bakery that employs victims of domestic abuse. Wow.

Coffee roasters employ ex offenders, train them to Redemptor. Vista. No. It's a new ground. Oh, nice.

And I was gonna open up department stores with, you know, the bakery, the coffee, where there there was a fashion brand that that buy, clear out they they ask people to clear out their wardrobe, and they will sell it online. So circular fashion called the circle. Mhmm. And there were there was another jeans company called Fanfare that that customized vintage Levi's and and remake clothes, you know, vintage or secondhand clothes or somebody else's clear out someone's wardrobe. And all all of these things, I I while I was doing that, though, as well, I I applied for a couple of roles, but not really.

I just got knew the people, and I'd heard that they were looking for a creative director. People used to say to me, like, we couldn't employ you. I'm like, why? They're going, you're like you're like David Bowie or something. You're like a rock god.

You're would you even turn up? Yeah. Would you even turn up? Of course I would. I was kind of honored that you turned up for me here today.

You mentioned David Bowie. I saw, you saying we're on another show about him being one of your dream people you'd love to have dressed. Mhmm. Is there anyone else in your dream, like, wish list? Elvis.

Nice. Anyone still alive? Is it all I've dressed? No. No.

No. I've dressed lots of them. Kate Bush. She's my after David Bowie, Kate Bush is my second most Awesome. Favorite person on the planet or or human being Nice.

Rock star or musician talent. You met her in person. I've never met. No. My all of my best friends produced, all of her albums.

Hayden Bendel is, the engineer at Abbey Road Studios, and, I met him through a friend. I I so I've dressed loads and loads of bands. I know lots of musicians. How have you never met Kate Bush? You can pull a few strings.

She's very reclusive. Is she? And Oh, yeah. Very, insecure, anxious, and, you know, she's just a really lovely person. Super, super talent.

But, Does that make it more attractive, like, the unattainability? Like, I'm never gonna be able to get given that she's so reclusive. I don't know. Not that easy. Reclusive.

She just do you know what happened with her is that she was so incredible, when she came out as a young girl and very beautiful and sexy and, you know, Gerard Mankiewicz did a photo shoot with her, and he persuaded her to appear in a vest. And and she was it was all a bit those photographs, they she looks wonderful in it, but that it's kind of like A bit off pan. Pan. She's a bit off pan. Right.

Yeah. Because normally, she's in these Yeah. Floaty dresses or whatever, really fabulous looking. After that shoot, she then got sort of typecast in by the press as this sort of sex pot or whatever, and she really didn't like that. And I think Well, how else are we supposed to understand women and what box to put them in?

Right? It's so sad, isn't it? We're we're trying to go down that route. What I'm curious is we covered some of these setbacks with All Saints, and we will come on to your eponymous label now, your mission. You touched on your ADHD as well.

I know that you speak quite openly about that. So a few other topics I wanna move on to. But I want to wrap All Saints with the growth journey because as much as you overcame these setbacks, overcame these hurdles, you were ultimately incredibly successful. You're already turning over millions in these first few years. So fact check, did you get it to a point where it was turning over kind of 15,000,000 around the time that you sold it?

And are you able to share how much you sold the business for in 02/2007? Or is that private? I never talk about money. Fine. Not really interested in money.

That's fine. I know. The growth levers to get one thing is going from kind of zero to one that we've covered, going one to 10, metaphorically and literally, so even now 1,000,000 to 10,000,000 plus. What had to change in the business and in you as a founder and a leader to get it to that next stage of growth? I don't know.

You know? I I don't even I I I'm not it's not I'm not the best to to talk about. I'm not, honestly, not interested in in money, and and I never really you know, whilst I was growing the business, you know, I remember it I remember it when we were running it and and, you know, that period, we were roughly £4,000,000, but I knew 5,000,000 is kind of the point where you have in back in those days, that was a sort of point where you would start to make money or Yeah. So, and then after that but I never ever stopped because what would happen was I would then find a store in Leeds or Manchester or Nottingham or Glasgow. And the next thing I was I mean, next thing I was doing was opening another store or so I never really ever took any money out.

Never really I didn't really look at it as a Mhmm. I never looked at the money. So did one of your partners have more of, like, a numbers head or a CFO, financial director, or it was just kinda taking care of itself? So the guy that joined me from Reiss, one of the I remember the very first beginnings when he when he he said, like he said, if if I join you, well, I I'd like to be in charge of the accounts, and I'd like to be in charge of the day to day running of the staff and the hiring and phone. And I'd like there was something else to come in, but it was but something else also equally boring.

And he said to me, he'd like and I went, absolutely. I'd be very happy for you to Please take your word. About a year later, you bastard, because you knew, didn't you? You knew that that he'd never really run a business before. And he was like, you knew that you'd given me all the shit jobs.

He's like, go away. I don't wanna be in these spreadsheets. You've just reminded me of another phenomenal guest who I've had on the show. So shameless self plug. I'm gonna promote another episode.

But you, if you haven't already met her, you two will get on like an absolute house on fire. Maxine Laspie, the cofounder of Absolute Collagen, she has a very similar story. She's also severe ADHD. You've got loads of the successful entrepreneur, loads of really creative, lots of things in common. And, she brought in a CEO, and her story is very similar, which is what it just reminded me.

She was like, yeah. Great. Love it. I don't wanna deal with any of this. So business is pretty much taking care of itself.

So you're growing it, and you had this offer come to you to sell the business. How did that feel, letting go of your baby? Can can we swear in this? Yeah. Because the funny story because this this business partner was a brummy.

Okay. And, one of the things the funniest thing that he ever said to me was, somebody asked me, how come you two get on and work so well together? Because, yeah, I was obviously this looks like a fashion dude. He doesn't and, you know You can get it. They they wanted to know how it and and I said, well, I do all the things that he doesn't like doing, and he does all the things that I don't like doing.

And he turned around and goes, since when have y'all been shagging my wife, Which I thought was really funny. But, yeah, that that was kind of like, the the reason that it worked so well is that I could you know, he he didn't knew nothing about fashion. So he just let allowed me to get on with it. And then he'd also seen me working ten years with David Rees Mhmm. And could see that all the things that I've done with Rees worked.

So Incredible. As far as fashion was concerned, I have a very, very, very I'm very fortunate. I have a talent for creativity and business. Mhmm. So I have a very commercial brain.

Yeah. So it's I don't just design things thinking, I don't care if nobody wears it. I want to do pink underpants or whatever. You know? I always I have a very commercial brain.

Unfortunately and timing. I'm very good at timing as well. So, fortunately, you know, it's worked out well along the years. I mean, you don't always get it right all the time, but, you know Yeah. The the whole idea is that you keep coming out, keep creating.

Yeah. I think it was Lucy and Freud that said as an artist, you know, the the the the only way to be a success is to keep producing. At it. And the more that you produce, and and and then you'll find what it is that people want. And then you when you find out what people want, then you hone your skills and 100%.

And give that. Yeah. This really validates. So I come more from kind of that tech world, and I've had a lot of tech founders on here as well. And there's a lot of these kind of Silicon Valley based principles that you really validate here as well.

The the complimentary skill set between cofounders, the test and learn and double down when something does work. So I love all of that. How did it feel letting go of your baby when the business was sold in 02/2007? It was kind of, a lot of people ask me that, and I and I I meet a lot of, founders now that are running their business that, and and and similar to me at that time, we were turning over 15,000,000, but I wasn't really we I was thinking I was paying myself quite a nice sum, you know, salary then, but most of it was getting invested back because the business was growing. And you couldn't stop it from growing.

It was like every week, we we would order I did a leather shirt, like a rock shirt. We ordered I think the first season first order was a 100 pieces. We sold out in one day. So we ordered 500. They sold out a weekend.

We ordered a thousand. They sold out in a weekend. Wow. So then we were ordered 5,000 of one items that it Just couldn't keep up. It just couldn't keep and then then you gotta pay for them.

Yeah. So, you know, the business we we had a belt with Jesus loves you and and and all saints rocks and all that. We were producing 10,000 a week and selling 10,000 a week, but and then we had to have to produce so we it just it just kept going and going. But I've never really ever had a lump sum of money. So someone came along, offered me a lump sum of money.

I was also they they bought out this partner and and the silent partner. They had then owned majority stake in the company, so they could they had more say in what how we did it. They wanted to move all the production at China. I loved working with British fabric mills, British factories, Italian fabric mills, Italian factories. We used to do about 40% in The UK, 20% in Portugal, 10% in Italy, about 10% in India, things embroidered or silk or whatever that you couldn't get.

It make in The UK. And we would do knitwear, say, in Hong Kong. Things that you, you know, really beautiful find. They wanted to move all the production to China, and I I was arguing every day. And, and I got offered a huge amount of money, and I just thought, do you know what?

I I don't know whether I can be bothered arguing with someone every single day. And, you know, I've made a mistake. I'd let a wolf in the door. They I don't wanna work with that person. I I didn't trust them.

They put a £20,000,000 loan on the table, told me to sign it. My bank manager was there. And I oh, I did ten years with this bank manager. We'd never borrowed a penny. We'd always had a, an overdraft facility.

We'd all the growth is organic. So from zero to $1,560,000,000, there was, you know, no borrowings. No he just looked at me and said, Stuart, I think you should get some and and this guy that he's like, shut the fuck up to the bank manager. And at the bank manager's like and I just said, listen, ma'am, I'm not signing this. What?

I I I and I didn't even have a business plan. I no. I sold the business. They borrowed the 20,000,000. They spent it in a year.

They borrowed a 198,000,000. Yeah. I saw that. And it's kind of Yeah. And those are that's another one.

You know when you said about sleeping at night, I wouldn't be able to sleep at night if I because to me, in their mind, they didn't care. They didn't if they didn't have to pay it back, they didn't care. Whatever. Fortunately for them but unfortunately for them, though, the people that bought it from me went bust about four years later. They'd spent that 198,000,000.

But the people that bought it from them, they build them out. They run the business now. They they it's they're owned by some huge hedge fund or whatever that you you know, it's another world. That's not my world. I don't really wanna be in that world.

Incredible. Completely different moral codes. Right? It's just money. So how do you feel if you ever see, like, an All Saints ad or you pass by one of the stores on the street?

How does it make you feel now seeing your baby? I think the the most intelligent answer is at least it's not shit. You don't think it's shit? It's not, is it? It's not.

It's it's it's still they still talk about trying to keep the original ethos, and they quite often mention of the founder, Stuart Trevor. Yeah. So they they obviously, it still looks similar to what I did. It's moved on. It's more commercial.

Yeah. Do you ever pop into a shop just out of curiosity? Not really. No. Not again, but not really.

I'm not. I don't I've never bought I've never bought clothes in thirty, forty years. I only ever buy vintage. Well, perfect segue. You've handed on a plate to me there.

Not buying new vintage. Perfect opportunity for your elevator pitch on Stewart Travel, the the label. What about a clothing brand that doesn't produce any clothing? Right. So I, I when when I was mentoring these young start up brands, the the with a positive social environment impact, I was taking them to investors and trying to get them funding and, you know, introducing, you know, the network of people that I have, you know, been introduced to that that that angel investors and things, VCs.

And they all of them, several of them, quite a few of them were like, why don't you do another brand? I used to love All Saints. I used to love Reese, but they're all it's not they're just mass produced. Why don't you do another brand? And I was like, the last thing the world needs, another clothing brand.

And they're like, but I love what you're wearing. And I would be wearing a vintage piece like this shirt, but I would do things to it. I'll turn up and show I'd I'd produce things, like, I would, you know, like, change the back on it. So we would add something written. And they'd be like, but I love that.

Why don't you do that? And I went away and I thought about it. I was like, why don't we do what about a clothing brand that doesn't produce any clothing? We just take clothes that already exist and and make them interesting. You don't it's quite often we don't.

Quite often we just add we have a little label, a little logo that I that I have here. Mhmm. I have the a little label here that I sign Mhmm. And I date, and I put your name on it if you buy it. And and we have a back neck Stewart travel label.

And Remixing. All all of the clothes already exist. Sometimes we do a lot to to fun come up. Sometimes we we get things that are completely, you know, ruined, like distressed denim jackets that are full of holes, and we patch them up with little patches that we have, and and they look they look really cool. Amazing.

Given your breadth of experience, I have to ask you, how does starting a business today compare to starting a business in the nineties? It's a it's another world. What's easier and what's better? What what what's what's harder and and easier these days, sorry, compared to before? Well, opening a retail store back in those days, you you know, with All Saints back in in, you know, 1996, I was able to open stores slightly off pitch in little areas that other people didn't think would be, you know, suitable for a retail store.

And that's why I did those sort of, fun fair lights with All Saints, you know, with because we were slightly off pitch, and you could see it down an alleyway or around the back and and go over there and go and have a look at it and, you know, and you'd walk in this semi derelict looking shop and find these clothes that are, like, wow. And and it worked. Nowadays, there was a shop near here just off of Oxford Circus in Marketplace. When I took that shop, it was £60,000 a year, which I remember thinking was a lot of money. It's now that shop would be £900,000 a year rent.

Wow. And the rates are 500,000. That is it's a joke. So everything like that, forget. Yeah.

So now you have online Mhmm. And you can sell direct to consumer. If you have the right marketing and you know how to do it, you you don't have to spend loads of money because you can target where you, you know, pitch Mhmm. Your brand to, but you don't gotta have somebody really good at it. So what's working for you these days with the new brand?

Well, we do target ads, but we also do like, I I take every opportunity that's given to me to appear on podcasts like this or, yesterday, I did a a magazine that's gonna go around all the all the top hotels in London and and and Europe, an interview and a photo shoot for that. Nice. We're doing, design week in Calgary next week in Canada. Yeah. That that came about because somebody saw us doing an event last September at London Fashion Week with a I like to do events in our studio in Hoxton, Shoreditch near Old Street Roundabout.

We invite people to come and see what it's like behind the scenes in the fashion world. So we have a photo shoot. People could turn up. They can try clothes on. They can model for us.

They can get behind the camera, get in front of the camera. They can, you know, paint on clothes. They Oh. You know? Super interactive.

Just just upcycle things. Learn how to do things. Bring us your old clothes. Bring us a wardrobe, fully your old clothes, and and you can either upcycle them with us or you can give them to us and we give you a credit note, and you can, you know, buy the latest Stuart Trevor collection or whatever. We we love to do lots of interaction and and, you know, meet people, invite people.

You know, we we invite we had Winchester no. Is it Winchester School of Business? Like, thirty, forty people came last week to meet us, and and we showed them what it is that we do. We we've got, lots of lots of different colleges. And then, also, we get people from companies like Google and, big corporate companies that want to talk to their staff and do events.

So they come to us, and we, you know, have a glass of wine and, you know, people buy stuff and but they learn. It's a mix. When you walk in my studio, you wouldn't believe it. You'd walk in when you look and you realize that everything in there existed previously. None of it is made brand new.

We we, you know, we we we with the we make the smallest amount. We have some dead stock rolls of fabric that we might we've made, I think, in the last two years, probably about 200 pieces. The rest of it is all made from garments that already exist. Yeah. And the the whole point of it is there is enough clothing on the planet to last the next eight, ten generations.

That is crazy. That long without producing another garment. So why why not take things that already exist and and make them cool? Yeah. Because the one thing that we can't do is we can't stop people from treating themselves from buying, you know, but you we all love clothes.

We all, you know, if you ask someone what do you want for your birthday or your Christmas or, Christmas or, you know, what or you've got a a wedding to go to or whatever. Mhmm. What's the first thing you think about? What am I gonna wear? Yeah.

100%. Clothes are after food Mhmm. And and health. The the the clothing industry is this second largest business in the world. Yeah.

Because people when you get up in the morning, you know, you are what you eat, you are what you wear. If you wear a really interesting outfit, you will lead an interesting life. If you think about what you're wearing, and wear quality garments and you turn up to an interview Mhmm. You'll get the job. If you turn up looking like a slob or whatever, you won't get the job.

So Yeah. You know, clothing is important. A 100%. And we're not gonna stop people from buying clothes. So what we do is we offer an alternative that's guilt free.

Yeah. So people can come and treat themselves. So people can come and visit your Hoxton studio. They can shop online. So plug stewartcover.com.

Fantastic. They can follow us on Instagram. Yeah. Stewart Trevor official. Nice.

We've done a whistle stop tour on your background, All Saints. We managed to make sure that we plug Stewart Trevor, the brand. I wanna make sure that we cover you you quite openly speak about ADHD. You mentioned that earlier in the in the interview. If you're happy to expand on that, we'd love to hear more about the diagnosis and how that has that has helped you to be better in business.

I've not actually had a diagnosis. I've well, I went to a doctor. My daughter asked me to take her to a doctor because she, she's a fabulous superstar. My my middle daughter is fabulous superstar high achiever, and but she was concerned because she couldn't understand why she can't concentrate on things, why she, you know, gets excited about something and, like, so excited. And then when she gets there, she's kind of up onto the next thing.

And and it's all the hallmarks of ADHD. She thought she was, you know, going mad or whatever. So she asked to go to a doctor. So we took to the doctor, and they give you a list of things that you fill out, and it asks you questions like, do you find it difficult to concentrate on something that you're not interested in? And the questions are never, sometimes, all of the time, absolutely all of the time.

And every single question, I was like, oh, it's absolutely all of the time, every single time. Yeah. And the doctor laughed and said, well, mister Trello, I think you you might have ADHD yourself. And I'm a way one could you know? And he went, if you're absolutely 100% all of the time to every one of those questions, then you should maybe So do you need did you take anything for it?

Or No. No. No. I would never take any medicine for it anyway. I don't think I need to.

I think it's a superpower, to be honest. It's what made me able to challenge tutors when I was at university. They they tried to and when I was doing the Paul Smith Mont Blanc competition, they tried to, kick out one of my outfits. I Paul Smith was walking through the the Paul, can I just show you these? What do you think?

He's like, well, they look amazing. Actually, that's how I got the offer that, you know, the job offer from him to to to come and intern from over the summer. Is this you'd like to and and I'd sent to the tutor because the tutor the tutor was furious because, you know, they were they were at and I used to think, how why do where did I get the balls to do that from? It was ADHD. I I didn't see I didn't see any barrier.

I'm like, well, why why would who the hell is she to tell me that I can't? And I got through the final, and and That. It was all the way through my life arguing with David Rees, the owner of the business, about there's absolutely no way I'm not doing that or whatever. You know? And it's all to do with the ADHD.

Do you ascribe ADHD as the cause to all of this? Or I mean, it sounds like there could be a mixture of different things. Right? What Just, and bravery and and ambition and creativity. Like, I don't know.

I think the, the I think it's just I think the ADHD is the thing that's given me the ability to never to not find fear in anything as well. Because, you know, when I mean, why would you said as well. Sorry. The same. That was exactly her words.

She said, I just don't fear fear. Yeah. Someone said to me recently, a guy that that got involved with when I started Stuart Trevor, who had been, you know, very, very successful founder, the founder of Leon, John Vincent, a good friend of mine, who has severe ADHD. He said to me one day, he goes, you have no fear, do you? You don't and I said, what do you mean?

He goes, well, most founders have this fear. They have a founder's fear. Like, he goes, you just wake up in the morning and just get on with it, don't you? You never and and I'm like, John, I wake up every morning thinking, what the hell am I doing? But I'd get out of bed and do it.

So Anyway And it is, Fascinating. But there isn't that there isn't a yeah. Because I think you have to be a bit you have to be slightly insane to to to to give up an amazing job, an amazing career somewhere that's really well paid to go and do you know? Because quite often founders and entrepreneurs, it's not most and a lot of them are just driven by the the hope that they're gonna earn loads and loads of money, but it was never that with me. And it it's not that with everyone.

I think a lot of people, they just I think they would regret not taking that step. And and you don't, you know, as I'm saying, it's not always been a success. I've had I've managed businesses through, distress. I've gone years without paying myself a penny and and still get out of bed every single morning and get there and try and, you know, fix it. And and a lot of that is I I don't know I don't know whether it's ADHD.

I just I know but I know I've definitely got it because otherwise You just know that you're that way. That's incredible. Amazing. Such a superpower. I love that.

Stuart, my penultimate question before I wrap with my traditional closing question on the show is, what's something no other interviewer has asked you? Because I know that I've touched on a few things. You said yourself, yeah, asked a lot of the same questions. What does no one else ask you about that you'd love to share on the show right now? The whole thing about what I'm doing is not just about trying to build this huge business and trying to fleece people for money and sell them clothes.

I really do want people to start thinking about what they buy and what they purchase and and and stop buying. I mean, to me, when I go into Selfridges or Zara or Primark or h and m and I I see racks and racks of clothes. It actually makes me feel physically ill thinking about how much clothes there already is on the planet. I was in Ghana two months ago, and there are mountains of clothes in in in there's there are container load container ships with a with a thousand containers full of clothes that people have bought and then don't know. There's some there's a 100,000,000 Zara items on vintage right now.

People don't know what to do with. Stop buying all that crap. Stop buying all the super brands as well. It's not just fast fashion. It's super brands as well.

Clear out your wardrobe. Go and meet up with your best mate and and and spend a day swapping clothes with each other. Young kids go to their moms. They're they're they're my my son's grandfather passed away recently. He went and cleared out his wardrobe, got all these old Savile Row suits.

He puts all these, like, sex pistols and had a man buttons and badges on him and safety pins. He now has these sort of semi classic tweed suits on a really young, cool looking kid, and he looks great. It doesn't it doesn't look my my daughter said to me, why don't you dress like Louis, my son? I'm like, god, I'd look like I'd look like his granddad if I wore it because I'm, you know, a bit older, but it looks really cool on a young kid. So start thinking about that and customizing clothes and, you know, putting little badges on or little bits of, you know, buttons or or whatever.

And I really would love it if people would bring me they they've got wardrobe full of clothes they don't know what to do with. I have already had several people come to me with two, three suitcases and say, just I just can you take this and do something really cool with it? And I was like, what what do you want? And they're like, I don't want anything. I just the, the relief that I have from offloading all of this stuff, because I don't know.

I've I've had it for years. I don't know what to do. I'm never gonna wear it again. And if you could do something really cool with it, then then I would love that. I'd love to see it.

And and and so I I was like, well, I I offered them a a a, you know, you take what you know, let me know what you want in here. I'd love that parker. And and this guy went over and put on a parka. He said, I would love one of those shirts with all the beads on the back, the sequins for my wife. So he and he swapped that.

I would love people to do that. Clear out their wardrobes and bring their their stuff to us, and and and we'll give you a gift voucher or whatever or or come and spend the day with us and upcycle your stuff or whatever. Love that. And and create something magical out of something that already exists. Yeah.

Because I know when we were kids, when I was young, we had things that we loved. We had favorite items. I used to remember thinking on a Saturday, like, you know, I can't wait till Saturday. I can wear my favorite jacket or my favorite sweatshirt or whatever. People don't have that anymore, do they?

The rise of fast fashion and and all that people I mean, these people have a lot more nowadays than than we did when we were young. I'm not gonna go, oh, woe is me when we were kids, whatever. It's just another world now, isn't it? But people people don't need as much, and and we're all being brainwashed into buying things that we don't need. Because every single we go on social media, and every second post is an advert.

And you oh, god. Look at that old quite like and you next thing you know, you're buying a jumper. You can't even fit it in your wardrobe. You've got nowhere to put it. Yeah.

Stop buying crap and and buy from sustainable brands. Only if if you wanna treat yourself buy from somebody that's making clothes out of clothes that already exist or or the most natural fibers, you know polyester I can't stand it all these sports wear companies you know our our skin is the largest organ on our body and every single pore breathes and people wear polyester tracksuits and football shirts and you you know and and it's it's actually it's like wearing a plastic bag. Yeah. And that you would never wear polyester knickers would you? Very.

Polyester pants. No one would. They know that you know men would become infertile, woman would be you know, it's it's so why would you wear polyester dresses or polyester blouses or Stewart, lovely mission. Definitely very much needed in today's day and age, and your passion absolutely shines through. So all the more reason to have you on the show and and and spread the good word.

My final traditional closing question on the show, which I ask all my guests, the title is strategy and tragedy. So what's one particular tragedy that's taught you an unforgettable lesson, Stuart? I think I don't have any regrets, but, but I do obviously, I'd I the guy that that bought All Saints from me, I should never have let him in the door. I was I didn't even need him. I didn't you know, the my business was going incredibly well.

I persuaded two partners that I've been, you know, working with to sell to him. He wouldn't see had majority share. I should never just be very, very careful because there's some horrible people out there. What was some red flag? Like, looking back, you know, hindsight's a wonderful thing.

Are there any red flags that you now know, you know, kind of warning others? What have you learned from it? Because I the ADHD thing as well, I'm a very trusting person. I I I say what I I do what I say, and I say what I do. I I never lie.

That's a 100%, an obsession with me that you you're very honest about and and everything. That that again is is empathy. It's all to do with ADHD. Mhmm. There are people out there and and I don't wanna say don't trust people, but Okay.

Because that's a shame, but you you have to be careful, because there are people out there that have they see what you've got, and and they, you know, I think that it goes back to the Mhmm. I don't believe in the Bible and all that. I I'm I'm you know, but the 10 commandments, there are people that cover what successful people have, and they I mean, I remember years people saying things, you know, you'll never be mister all saints and all that. Look at him and look at you and all this sort of stuff. And that drove this guy so insanely jealous that he decided to completely fuck me over and and and and buy take over the business.

And it was a hostile takeover. I never wanted to sell All Saints. I would still be running it to this day. But, anyway, life moves on, and you, you know, you fall off a horse and you get back on it, and you gallop off into the sunset. Now I I actually I'm so much prouder of what I'm doing now.

Really actually believe for the people used to say to me as well, god. You're the coolest guy I've ever met. Reiss, All Saints, Bolongaro, Trevor. Now I I never ever thought I was cool ever, but actually quite now, I actually start to look at what I'm doing. I'm thinking, actually, this is really cool.

This is cool. Because it's we're taking things that already exist and just making them that bit better. Actually, having this positive impact. It has a really positive social environment. More into your legacy as well.

Right? You've had this kind of this you know, we talked to a little bit before about the sliding doors and almost going and working for Paul Smith earlier in your journey and all of these other crossroad moments that you've had, and we can't AB test it. You go down that road and, you know, we don't question what if, but it has led you to an even better position now. Yeah. I feel really happy.

It's kind of funny to laugh about it now because it I as a young kid in Dundee at eight, nine, 10 years old, I discovered David Bowie, and I asked my mom, who's David Bowie, little Scotch kid? And and I saw him on top of the pops, and I and and the only things that we used to get back then were hand me down clothes. Yeah. And I used to take them out and get my taught my mother taught me to sew so I could make, like, a man's trouser into a kid's trouser with pleats in it like David Bowie. I'm kind of full circle now.

I'm taking, like Yeah. Those out of a suitcase, customizing them, and and creating length outfits. So Yeah. Lovely. It's kind of Nice.

Lovely. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. Sweet.

And it's fun. Well, lovely note to end this on as well, Stuart. Thank you so much for being such an incredible guest on Strategy and Tragedy. It's been a genuine pleasure hearing some of these stories, and I feel like I'm right there with you in the nineties, eighties during all these moments. So That was a fun period.

Appreciate it.

Let's have some more fun. Yeah. Amazing.

And thank you so much for listening.

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