The Storytelling Expert: Mark Leruste

Strategy & Tragedy: CEO Stories with Steph Melodia is the best business podcast for curious entrepreneurs featured in the UK's Top 20 charts for business shows.

Hosted by Stephanie Melodia, Strategy & Tragedy features candid interviews with entrepreneurs who have scaled - and failed - their businesses - sharing their lessons in entrepreneurship along the way. From Simon Squibb of "what's your dream?" internet fame to Maya Raichoora, the visualisation guru; from Matt Lerner, the GOAT of Growth, to Nina Briance of CULT MIA.

This is one of the best podcasts to listen to if you're looking for educational and inspirational content on Spotify, Apple, Google, Amazon, YouTube or watch the clips on Instagram, LinkedIn, TikTok, or YouTube Shorts

In this episode, Stephanie Melodia interviews Mark Leruste - Founder of StoryCast®. Leadership Communication Expert. Global Keynote Speaker. Award-Winning Author of GLOW IN THE DARK 💡

Mark helps leaders harness the power of their stories to build trust and inspire action. He’s worked with the likes of Google, Microsoft, and Nike to communicate and connect in a way that resonates and drives real impact.

His TED talk, ‘What they don’t tell you about entrepreneurship,’ has amassed 1.3M views, and Steven Bartlett listed it as the number 1 TED Talk every entrepreneur should watch.

In this interview, Steph and Mark discuss:

• Why storytelling matters

• Practical frameworks (like the 3 C's) to help you become a better storyteller

• Inspirational examples from Mark's time at the Movember Foundation to Wrexham FC

• The blurred lines between storytelling and the truth

• Entrepreneurship and mental health

• And so much more.

Watch on YouTube via the link below or keep reading for the transcript:

(TW: Contains themes of mental health including depression and suicide).

SM: Mark, why should people care about storytelling?

MLR: Well, if you care about making an impact and connecting with people on any sort of level, whether that's for your business or, for your reach, then you need to pay attention to the native language of the humans, which are stories.

In fact, if you look at, over 400,000 years ago, the way that, humans evolved around fire and cooking and extended their days into the night, they used to share stories. Now I never know how people know this anthropologist, but it kinda makes sense if you think about it because you're probably sitting there around the fire and Steve is sharing a story about, like, don't eat that berry. It's gonna give you the shits, you know, or something like that. Or, like, don't you know, be careful over there. There's some predators sort of gonna catch you. This is how you catch a prey or this is how you find shelter.

Sharing stories was actually part of a survival mechanism and paying attention was the same. And in today's world where everybody's so focused on AI and, like, we gotta adapt to technology and we gotta focus and double down on technology, Actually, what I say to companies and to leaders is slightly different.

I say, we can't predict the future. There's no way of seeing what the future will be. So instead of obsessing about what the future will be, obsess on making sure your teams are ready for anything the future can throw at them. And the one battle tested thing that's helped countless companies and leaders outperform the market and stand out, cut through the noise, build trust, and inspire action are people who use stories.

SM: Love that. Fantastic answer. What do you think people get kind of wrong about it? What do you think is the main stumbling block? What what's the struggle with storytelling?

MLR: So from a general perspective of storytelling, I think people don't apply a simple structure, which I talk about in in my book, and we are very happy to share the framework with you later. That's number one.

The number two is that they make the stories about themselves, and they sort of get lost in their own stories. I'm specifically talking about people who are trying to build personal brands or leaders within companies trying to build inspired teams - they sort of make the story about how great they are. And they fail to see the most important part, which is, "okay, well, what's in it for me as the audience member?" Right?

There's seven steps to making impactful stories. Happy to share through that as well.

SM: Well, on that note, I do remember seeing you recently posting about your story is about you, but it's not for you. So would you like to expand on that?

MLR: Yeah. So, I try and get leaders to be more, authentic and vulnerable within their organisations teams and with the outside world. One of the things I try and get people to talk about more is is about themselves or part of themselves or why certain things, feel personal to them. And one of the things that a lot of people say is that, "well, I don't wanna come across as self centred." Or "I don't wanna come across as I wanna milk my story" or "I'm trying to somehow manipulate people to feel certain things because, you know... " so it's a lot about the outward focus on other people if you want in a way, in the sense of, like, "what do you think about me?" Because the story's about me. And what I say to people is that, yes, your story is about you in its essence because you're sharing something that happened to you or that you went through or that you resonate with or whatever it is. But if you understand the power of storytelling the way that I love to teach, it's actually the most impactful way to share stories when you make it about the audience. So it's about you, but it's not for you because it's a gift for your audience.

So really, a story is a vehicle for a message you're trying to land.

SM: I love how that the bridge sort of pulls into the middle there. The people who maybe go OTT to your previous point on, like, the personal brand and get lost in their own story, and then you've got the others who've got the fear of becoming of coming across self centred. So that brings those two audiences together there, which is converting that into what's in it for the audience.

So have you got any - we mentioned on practical frameworks, we will get stuck into, like, how to actually do live exercise on storytelling - but have you got any practical tips on converting something about you to the audience?

MLR: The easiest way to start it is to look at my, impact formula, the storytelling formula.

It's called the three C's.

It's very simple because if you study storytelling or anybody listening or watching is into storytelling, then you've probably heard about the 12 steps of Joseph Campbell's hero's journey or the monomyth. You probably heard about the 5 Why's that in journalism, and there's all these amazing frameworks right out there.

But one thing I noticed, especially with leaders or business leaders, entrepreneurs, founders, is that they're quite complex, so they're a bit hard to implement in real time, especially like you're on a podcast, you're on a panel, you're on a stage, you're in a team meeting, you're at a, all staff meeting or sort of a town hall type meeting, and you get asked a question and you gotta pull out a story out of your sort of story bank, which I call in the Glow in the Dark - my book, I called the story bank. You gotta pull it out and sort of run it through a framework. And 12 steps, seven steps, five steps are kind of complex.

So I came up with a three step framework:

The first one is called context.

That's really sort of, tell me. Give enough information that I don't have to think about, the relevance. Give me enough context so I can understand where you are, and then my mind's not wondering. And I was gonna give you an example after we do the three c so we can real time you can see.

Second part is connect. So also take me. That's when you go into the emotional resonance or you go into the pinnacle moment or there's a sort of climax moment in your story. And most people kind of stop there, like, right? Most people can sort of get into the story, share sort of, like, the fun moment, the sad moment, the tragic moment, you know, or whatever it is.

But the third part that misses is what I found observing a lot of leaders and working with leaders is the third part, which is conclusion, which is tell me.

And that is land the plane. Tell me what's in it for me. Why should I listen? Why should I care? So I'll give you an example, relevant to one of the seven of sharing stories with impact:

It's 1991, and I'm sitting on this bus. I'm really excited, because we're off to Disney, and we're not gonna go and see Mickey. We're we're actually gonna go and witness Jonathan Ross recording a a TV show. He used to have this sort of evening talk show, and he's gonna interview Diana Ross. Right?

And so because they want to do this big thing at EuroDisney and have an audience, they asked all the local schools, all the English-speaking local kids to come and and watch. And this is a dream come true. Right? Because back then, I wanna be an actor. I wanna be in TV.

So I get there, and there's, like, 900 people in this auditorium, and it's amazing. And we're seeing, like, how the being made, you know, and, like, they redo a take or whatever it is. In between takes, right, they have these, women walking around with microphones sort of warming up the crowd, if you want. I don't know if you've ever been to a live recording, but they have this sort of crowd warmers. I don't know what you call them.

And at one point, she says, would anybody like to say a joke? And, like, three kids raise their hands, and I'm one of those kids. I'm thinking as I go up towards the microphone and all the other kids start sharing these jokes, like, you know, why did the chicken cross the road or whatever it is. And, and I'm like, I've got the joke.

Like, it absolutely smashed it in the courtyard this morning. I just nailed it. Everybody was in stitches, so I'm gonna say that joke. (In case you're wondering, I'm not gonna say this joke live now because what I will say is that involves, a parrot, Jesus, and a Coca Cola!)

I say the joke. At the end of my joke, half the room goes like, oh... and the other was like, oh, like, awkwardly laughing.

The woman snatches the microphone on my hand and goes like, okay. Thank you very much. And she leans in, and she's like, "don't ever say that joke again."

I was really confused, because this joke did so well in the courtyard with my mates, and somehow I've just been told never say this joke again in public.

And the important lesson I learned that day was know your audience. It's not about the story. It's not about the message. It's not even about what you're trying to say. It's about knowing who you're speaking to so you can meet them where they are.

So that's live, right? That's the three c's. If you think about what I just said:

I said in the context that I'm excited. I'm going to Disney. Then I take it to the moment where she snatched the microphone, and she kinda says, don't ever tell that story. That's that's the sort of climax. And then I go what I actually learned that day, then the difficult way was you gotta know your audience.

And another way that you can use to say this that's quite easy is just say, "and the reason why I'm telling this story is..." if you get lost in your story and you're kinda going off on a rant, one way to come back is just to say, "and the reason" or "you're probably wondering" - ask yourself why I'm sharing the story or the reason why I'm sharing the story, and then you're there.

SM: Love that. Gets the gets the crowd back in.

Bearing in mind, this is an entrepreneurial audience, let's connect that. Obviously, this is applicable to everyone, but just connecting it specifically to business now. Because storytelling matters not only when you're on a podcast or to get the get the crowd engaged, but even in fundraising, like pitching. (Time and time again, the data's gone to show the story that you especially if you're early stage, like many of my listeners are, that story you tell to get the investors along that journey, get that conviction).

Can you talk a little bit to the measurable impact within the storytelling and business?

MLR: Yeah. I mean, look. I'll I'll give you a a personal story as I probably you would probably guess by that. But, the truth is they used to have this joke at, Movember.

I used I used to work at the Movember Foundation. I was one of the country managers and there was this joke that we called it "the Rustey effect." It was affected when I used to go into market. So I'd go into so I ran Movember France, Movember Spain, Movember Belgium, and Movember Switzerland. And when I'd go into market, you'd see a a sort of spike in registrations. And the reason being is I was just using story, right? That was the only thing I was using.

So I'd go out there. I had a backpack, a very questionable moustache and a story. And you would see a definite link between activation communities and results.

The other thing is that if you think about, actually - I'll give you a concrete example, because I shared this example yesterday in the keynote I gave to 400+ business leaders, about Wrexham FC. It's a small Welsh football club - you know, mining town, proud, and and my mom's Welsh.

In 2021/2 Hollywood actors, Canadian American, Ryan Reynolds and Ryan Macken buy the club, right, for $2,500,000. Over the course of the next four years, the club gets, back to back promotions, goes from division five to be coming now into the championship league.

For people like me who have no idea about football: all you know do you need to know is that they were, like, at the bottom of that the professional league, and now they're literally one promotion away from being in the premier league.

Now they're worth an estimate of a hundred and $33,000,000. You could argue there's many things that happened, but I'll tell you what I what I saw from a storytelling perspective. Ryan Reynolds is a genius at taking a brand or a product that might be in a saturated market, who might be a struggling market, and turn it into one of the most valuable assets.

And he does that through storytelling. He does that through brand building. And the way that they did it is that they did a documentary called Welcome to Wrexham, they humanised the club, the supporters, and they made it all about the community. It wasn't about the Ryans; it was all about the club. It was all about the community, this story, and they had this vision.

It was a crazy vision when they're in division five, which was to turn Wrexham FC into a Premier League club. And so this idea that this was even possible and, obviously, they invested money, and they got the people in and players, all this stuff. But this storytelling ability enabled them to build a franchise or, like, a club that's becoming a staple name, and it's just one promotion away from being the pro - it's completely crazy.

And there's there's countless stories like that.

You've seen the brands who embrace storytelling as a way to leverage their product. And I think also people don't buy necessarily the best product. They tell the product that tells the best story.

SM: What I just connect that to - sticking with the entrepreneurial theme is in the great TED talk that you gave a number of years ago, you highlighted the disparities between the glamorous life of entrepreneurship, which I think more and more people are realising that is not the case. And the show as well is absolutely the purpose of that is to get behind the scenes and actually understand more of the realities -

What can you share with entrepreneurs to help them prepare for the realities of what that journey looks like?

MLR: Yeah. So look, I'm eight years into the journey. Right? Give or take. Nine years. Wait It feels longer with COVID in the mix as well like that. Right. And I'll say something that might be controversial.

I actually don't think that everybody should be an entrepreneur.

Like, this was my harsh reality that I realised. I don't think everybody is necessarily built to be an entrepreneur, and it doesn't mean that you're less than by saying that. I just wanna make that very clear. There is not a superior hierarchy of if you're a founder, if you're not a founder, if you're not a entrepreneur. The reason why I say this is that I think there can be a sort of glorification of entrepreneurship online. It's like build to follow your dreams, and for some people, 100%. And I think entrepreneurs and founders can solve some of the world's most meaningful problems, and we need entrepreneurs. We need business owners for sure. I also think that some people would be probably happier within a company where their values feel more aligned with with the work that they're doing, where they feel the mission is compelling, where they feel that the vision is worth fighting for, and they wanna help build this sort of company where someone else is perhaps founding it or leading it. That I wanna caveat my answer with that, because...

We can be quick to think "I wanna run a business because I'll have all the freedom that I want, and I'll have all the opportunities, all the money" - and it's not at all like that.

You know this. Anybody who's spent enough time with people who've built businesses from, you know, single digits to 8 figures, such as yourself and me, you know, for my podcast, The Unconventionists, I've interviewed, like, hundreds of of people for that. You realise that you you've gotta have the ability to sustain the highs and the lows. It it's gonna take a toll on your mental health, like, big time.

There's studies I talk about in my TEDx talk. Doctor Freeman who who studied entrepreneurs and the link with mental health, and there's, like, a higher probability of you having depression, anxiety, and all this stuff. So that's the first thing I'll say.

The second thing is if you're committed to it and you got an idea and you wanna do it, it's like, have the grace to recognise that it's not gonna be easy all the time, and don't try your best and not tie your sense of self worth to the outcome of your startup or your company or your business.

It's really important, really hard to do in life, but so important if you can get this. Because it's sort of like, you're trying to create this thing, it's an extension of who you are, but it's not who you are. I mean, we could get so tied up that if I don't make my numbers, that means I'm being rejected. If I ask for a sales, I'm the one who's being rejected. So I'll say to people to try and really dissociate yourself, even if you're building a personal brand. Which is what I do. Keep in mind that I spent about a decade as an employee, and I went through different variations of positions, as a manager, and I was generating about €6,000,000 of revenue for a business cause working with. I raised €2,800,000 for men's health for Movember. So I was a pretty high performer when it came down to what I was doing. I was really good at it. And I thought that when I would transition to running my own business, it'd be easy.

All the stuff that I was judging, criticising, and I would never do that, you know, then I would be like, of course, I'm a unicorn. I'll be different. And boy was I wrong.

Like, when it started, I was like, all this sort of weird stuff that's coming up around I don't wanna pitch to you. I don't wanna say a number because it feels weird and awkward, and I'm not quite sure. And all this weird stuff just started mixing up. And I realised, like, oh, it's because I'm internalising this business. Like, this is an extension of me. So therefore, if you reject my business, you're rejecting me. And so I would say to people, just try and find a way to say this is a product. It's a service. It's not you. Even today. Right? So my product is a keynote. So I effectively go into companies or conferences, and I deliver a a sort of inspiring keynote. It's not it's me because I'm performing, but it's the product. People don't buy me necessarily. Right? Like, I'm not a Simon Sinek or or Brene Brown yet, whatever what a thing is, but but what what I do is I'll solve a problem.

And so what I have to remember is, like, if someone doesn't pick me for their event or someone doesn't reply yes to a pitch, it's just that they I didn't do a good enough job to express the value that I could bring, or it just wasn't right for them. But it doesn't mean I'm inadequate. It doesn't mean that I'm not enough. It doesn't mean that I'm not lovable. And I know it sounds weird to say this, but I I think it's an important conversation that a lot of people aren't having.

The final point I make is you've got to find a community of people who will be real with you and will tell you, like, if it's time to stop, it's time to stop. Or if it's time, like, push, push, you know? Or if it's time to rest, just rest.

Sometimes just if someone said, hey it sounds like you've been on the road a lot, like I've been right now. You can hear, like, I'm run down at the moment. Maybe, like, take a break. Maybe you don't need to say yes at every gig you're gonna get. Maybe, like, some of them you can sort of say, "hey, I'm sorry, I'm busy." I'll come back next year. So have a community that can have your back because I really think that, the way that you thrive is by is by making sure that you surround yourself in in a really sort of positive is a weird one, but, like, a sort of optimal environment. And I'm not just talking about, like, your flat or the car, the bike that you ride. I'm talking about the people you surround yourself and people who genuinely want you to succeed. And I've seen this and you've seen this, where we are sometimes in a community and it and it almost feels like they say that that that's great, but it's not genuine.

And it's like it's almost like you feel bad to share some of the wins that you've had or maybe you've said, you know, and shout out to Mic Drop community members watching this hopefully. I think that's an amazing community, for example, of speakers who are actively trying to help each other out and share each other.

And, look, I'll say this, and I'm not proud to say this: I think a lot of people think that I'm naturally generous and able to connect people and give and all this stuff. I've had to learn it because I think I was wired as a kid because of the chronic trauma I went through that I was really on my own, that I had to make sure that I did everything I needed to do in order to survive and and thrive. When I've come to realise that, actually, we do much better by helping each other out, and that if you succeed, then I succeed. It's like almost Ubuntu sort of mentality of, like, I win when you win.

SM: Yeah. A mutual friend of ours actually introduced me to the concept of the go-giver. You know, we're all familiar with, like, being a go-getter. Actually, being a go giver. And that value that you get exactly to your point on helping others. It's not you're not giving away anything of your own. It's you're actually you stand to gain more than anything, and it's the opposite of that scarcity mindset.

MLR: Yeah. I've really had to I'm trying to do this with my kids, like, the growth mindset, this kind of idea, like, they'll say, like, "oh, why don't I have the same amount?" and I'm always going, you know, if you spend your time comparing yourself, you spend your time, you're never gonna be content with what you have. Right? And, like, you know, Sophie Devonshire, wanted to give a shout out to. She's amazing at this. She's the CEO of The Marketing Society and, she's so good at connecting. She's like a super connector. She's the one who connected me to my publisher. She's the one who connected me to a speaking agency who who booked me and stuff. So she is always really out there actively connecting and inspired me to do the same. So when I can connect people - when I can get people into gigs and stuff, I love doing it.

SM: It's such a productive ripple effect, isn't it? Because it does make you feel like you wanna do the same. You wanna pass it on, pay it forward.

You kind of brushed past trauma as a kid. Is that something you're okay to talk about? I'm just intrigued what that was about.

MLR: Yeah. No. So it's no secret, but I'm dyslexic - as I like to say, I'm a proud dyslexic thinker with a ADHD powered brain. It's kind of like the way that I know this now, but back then, this is in the early, you know, the 80s, 90s, and, it wasn't really a thing, especially in France's archaic educational system.

(I was born and raised in France. You know, I often say when I'm on stage, I'm half half British, half French. Nobody's perfect. It gets you a few laughs in The UK. I said the same joke in France. It bombs. Right? And then I realized that, oh, self deprecating humor is not a French thing).

I was a really sort of creative, active, probably bouncing off the walls. I was probably a real pain, let's be honest. As a kid, the teacher must have been a nightmare. But because I couldn't read out loud, I couldn't spell, I couldn't do basic maths, I was basically bullied almost daily, if not weekly basis, by my some of my French school teachers. So in two pivotal years when I was, like, 5/6 to 8/9 or something like that, and it left a lot of scars.

It left a lot of scars because if you're constantly being reminded that you're inadequate, that you're just stupid, that you'll just amount to nothing, you sort of internalise that. And I was then held back a year, when I was maybe about 11, something like that. Eventually, I was kicked out of conventional education. I was 16, and I went into sort more sort of in theory, it's supposed to be like more professional route where you're not academic, academically sort of gifted on here if you go to these sort of things, and yet it's looked down upon a lot in France - at least back then. But through, you know, a series of events, I managed to get into university and my life turned out to be great, and I'm really grateful for my life.

But still to this day it's really interesting. So for example, when I was doing my slides for yesterday's keynote, I originally had, like, 460 slides, right, for a 45-minute keynote. Then I break it down to 220 slides. I went on stage, I said, 220 slides for 45 minutes. And what's interesting is that I think part of it is driven by the fact that I still, to this day, feel like people will know that I'm stupid or that I'm inadequate. And so I need to make sure I put up smoke and mirrors. So if I boom boom boom, if I do all this like, really smart stuff quotes and, like, I I can hide. And it's taken me a lot of time to sort of unpack that and to go, actually, I'm a creative. I'm just someone who's a creative who happens to operate in a business world, and I love marketing and leadership and impact with that stuff. But it's that sort of childhood wound that still drives the train at times and drive the car, which I'm still working through.

And thus the whole idea of, you know, I was so driven when I was a kid. I was so committed internally. I was convinced I'd be an actor. I was just convinced. Right? Because all the teachers were sort of going, you're not gonna match or whatever, and thank God I had the anglophone section there who sort of was a beacon of hope because we had 6-7 hours of English a week. And, and then I was on set of a of a TV show called The Count of Monte Cristo with Gerald de Pardieu, and, I was so excited. I was like, "oh my god. This is it. This is the beginning of everything." Right? Because I'd been through auditions, and I wasn't one of the last kids to get picked for a film with Jane Austen, whatever the film was. And they said, "Oh, sorry, you didn't get it. It was down to you and this other kid. He looked more like the main actor." I don't know if it was Ewan McGregor or someone like that. But we'll give that there's this extra piece if you want, this TV show. I was like, "yeah, great. I'll do it."

So I'm on set, and I'm just in costume. They perm my hair, whatever it was. There were little chairs and hot chocolates and sandwiches. It was just the best. And I'm standing there, this guy in my mind, he's, like, 67. He must have been 24. Right? I'm a kid. So he's but, I mean, honestly, he must have been actually quite young, but in my mind, he's, like, this really old guy.

And, he asks: "what you're doing here?" I remember he had, like, this long hair, and he was, like, juggling or some some weird stuff. And I'm like, oh, I'm gonna become an actor. I'm gonna be the next Brad Pitt, the next Tom Cruise, like, you know, just so you know. And he's like, right. Yeah. No. That's not happening. Like, one in a million make it. You'll be waiting tables for the whole life. Look at us. There were all these guys waiting around. This is what we do just to get a paycheck, you know, and I just remember as a kid just going, oh my god, that sounds awful. I definitely don't want that. The reality check.

And so when it came down to studying at university, I studied business. Really, I thought it was a backup plan. I'm gonna start a business, and if I'm gonna go into acting, and if acting doesn't work out I'll go to business.

SM: You're you're doing incredibly well now. so, happy ending, so to speak. But listening to your story there, I can't help but wonder what a dangerous recipe that is going into the world of acting with already these wounds from childhood and already having low self esteem, trouble with your self worth, understandably, through the bullying, and then going into something like acting is just going to, like, amplify that 10,000 times.

MLR: You know, things maybe work out for a reason. Perform. I mean, and, honestly, like, I was thinking about this yesterday. The weird thing is my my my wife can't understand this. I sent a picture yesterday. So people can scroll back on my LinkedIn, feed, and they'll see a picture of me taking a selfie on stage with 450 people in the background.

And I walked into the room, right, and there's, like, this incredible production. I haven't seen anything like this. Like, there are LED screens all around and music and, like, this huge ballroom, which I think could probably hold a thousand people. Right? And, and I get in there. I send the picture. I'm like, look how awesome this is. It's amazing. I'm always like, not a lot of people would see that and get excited, you know, and count the minutes till you get on stage. So when I walked on stage yesterday, you know, and I'm on that stage, I'm home.

It's so weird to explain this, but, like, I am home. I get on that stage. I feel super comfortable. It's like if I'm talking to you right now, but I just have 450 people in front of me. And someone asked actually in the Q&A, how do you find the difference between sharing a story to one person versus a group?

And I was like, well, obviously, I'm not as animated if I'm just with the one to one because it'd be so weird if I'm like walking around like, "and what you really need to do as a leader!" you know what I mean? So that is probably the thing. But otherwise, from an energy level, I'm as connected, as inspired, and as passionate about this message as I would be if I'm talking to you on a podcast, on a one to one over a coffee while I drink tea, but, on a stage.

SM: Love that. I think if anyone gets that, I definitely do, Mark, but I appreciate that we are both in very tiny minority. With Alex Merry, we talked about how the very vast majority of people, like 97% or something would literally rather die than go and speak on stage. so we're a pair of weirdos, you and I, but hopefully our audience can really take something away from what we're talking about.

What I wanna connect this back to, and I'm really glad that the story is kinda taken this direction, because I did wanna circle back to your points around self-worth in entrepreneurship, because there was such a great answer you gave before on, like, preparing people for the realities of entrepreneur.

So there's a couple of things. One is with comparisonitis and social media. It's there's a couple of tension points because you've got the nature of the world that we live in today in 2025, but also in business, and especially if you are bootstrapped or you're really trying to make kind of each penny count personal brand, at least, you know, for me, I've definitely found that has been one of the most powerful, if not the most powerful way to build a business without the media budget and putting the Zuck tax, which I talk about as well.

Can you talk to the mental health side of that given, like, your previous role at at Movember?

MLR: It's really hard. Like, I'm just gonna say this straight up. I'm not gonna come here and think that I've got it all figured out. It's really hard. So my everyone's gonna have their own stuff that sort of they peg their their sense of success. Right? So the narrative that I had growing up was money equals success, right?

So, no fault of her own, but my mom might be talking about so-and-so look at, like, they've got this big house, they've got a great job, loads of money.... There's always this narrative of, like, money equals success. So for me, the amount of my bank account equals my amount of worth. And it is so messed up because it's so ridiculous. I know people who are millionaires, if not billionaires, and they will tell you, trust me when I say this money gives you ease and it gives you loads of sense of but it will not bring you happiness, that sense that you're feeling in your heart that if you would get, like, a million or whatever it is in the bank that you're gonna feel different, you're not. Right? And I've seen this my whole life, by the way. You know?

I've been very fortunate in the sense that, you know, I landed a TEDx talk. It's had over 1,300,000 views. My podcast won an award for best podcasting interview at the Business for Podcast Awards. My book, Glow In the Dark won the best self development business book at the Business Book Awards, and I could go on, right?

I thought that I would feel different when these accolades happened. Hey, spoiler alert. Doesn't doesn't change a thing.

It's great on that day, but then the next day, you're like, right. Shit. The hole's still there. You know? That's an old one. But, yeah, that that nagging feeling's still there. So we hear about it all the time. We know this. The implementation is the hard part, right, which is this idea of try and and and know that just you being alive is enough. And the way that you show up with your friends and your family matter more. Because of my TEDx talk, I think one of the reasons why it resonated with people is that I sort of you know? And I was very scared, by the way, to share this part of the story online because I thought my business would tank.

I thought that that would be career suicide effectively because I was gonna talk about how I struggled, how I didn't know how I was gonna pay my my mortgage, how I was on the floor crying one morning going, like, what am I doing? You know? I thought this was gonna be easy. But I think it's about really giving yourself the grace of understanding that it's gonna be hard, and you've got to know the foundations that you need to put in place in order to function. Just operate at a functional level if you want.

So for example, for me, I know that if I eat a bunch of junk food, if I don't exercise, if I don't hydrate, if I don't sleep well, if I'm on social media doomscrolling, I'm screwed. But forget it. My mental is you know, I've got ADHD, and so I try and manage as much as I can. And so find your baseline of some things that you can do.

The other thing which is, I think, is really, really hard, is to is to try and limit your usage of social media. And I know we all know this. We all say this. And, you know, Alexander Bell is an amazing speaker on this about the tech rules and how we need to make sure that we rule tech and before tech rules us, but it's it's it's a really important aspect, I think, of society, especially now.

Like, think about it. Chatbots are gonna redefine the relationship that our kids have with friends. You know, the same way that we didn't pay attention to social media, how it would affect the brain of teenagers and young kids, we're gonna go through this with chatbots now because imagine kids interacting with chatbots. They have a friend on demand all the time, answering all their questions, being there whenever they need. They don't understand anything about limitations, or why would they need to go make out friends on the outside world when they've got this bot right here? So all these things that, you know, as parents or non parents, we need to be aware of. And then, again, I try and observe people. I look around who who do sort of things. So I'm fortunate in the way that because I'm a parent, I am so aware of the, finite amount of time that we have on this planet, especially with people that we love. You know, I see my kids grow up before my eyes, and I feel like it's sand slipping through my hands.

I have a chart in my home gym that, that people find really weird. Like, my my wife and my friends just find it really anxiety driven, but it really helps me. It's effectively a sort of, a big poster, fifty two weeks per line, and it has about 90 lines going down. It's my life in dots. And every week on Sunday, I fill it with a black marker, and it reminds me of how did I spend my week. How did I spend my time? Who did I connect with?

And when I get all this sort of stress and angst about we talked about this, like, in the speaking world there are moments of "well, I had a good ride. It's over now." You know? No no gigs are coming in. No leads are coming in. And then it just goes crazy. And it's the circle. It's just to remember that.

I never would have said this before. I really wouldn't. I would have been, like, I was all about business and success and and all this stuff. And I think I've seen enough entrepreneurs. The one that really threw me off actually was Tony Hsieh, the founder of Zappos. His book, Delivering Happiness, is an amazing book. This guy: he had all this sort of mental health problems and struggle with a lot of stuff. You hear these stories over and over again of these people who are successful on the outside, but deeply broken on the inside.

So I really would love for people to lean more into mental health support, finding community, and exercise. I mean, I'll show up because I'm going on a rant, but the one thing at Movember that doctors all agreed on. You couldn't like, do tomatoes help prevent prostate cancer or not? Everyone's debating this, whatever. But the one thing that every doctor said, exercise is the best medicine for your mental health. It just is. The oxytocins that are released, the hormones that you're creating as I was exercising. I'm a different human being when I go to the gym, just so we're clear. I'm a usually a horrible human being when outside of the gym, even grumpy, and I'm like, I just feel like a tiger in a cage. So just exercise is the answer.

SM: I love that so much. Like, the fundamentals. Just getting those fundamentals right. Sleep. Nutrition. All the good stuff.

MLR: I need to say this. I'm victim of this where I'm like, if I don't have my morning routine, Steph, I just I just can't do it. Forget it. Like, I don't have my sort of, like, ten minute calm meditation air on. I can't do my journaling. Routine. With my greet all that. No.

So, again, I heard someone say this. You gotta you gotta lower your ceiling and raise your floor. Something like that. It's like if you've only got time to just focus on water today -Robbie Thompson taught me this - if all all you can do today is just hydrate enough, you just do that. That's enough. Make it easy. Do what do whatever you can.

SM: Couple on the social media front before we wrap here. One is just sticking with kind of personal branding and business and stuff as well, whether you are a keynote speaker or an entrepreneur or you're the founder of a SaaS business, whatever it may be. We were just talking before we hit record about you using LinkedIn and really just focusing on one channel and just doubling down on that. And we were just talking about how it can be such a time suck. Not just the content creation. You were saying you were, like, two hours on a post this morning, very understandable, let alone all the commenting, the engaging, and everything else. So totally with you on all those fundamentals. I'm like, taking care of yourself. Don't get sucked into that. Too much social media is just not gonna do anyone any good. But keeping it on the business benefits here as well, where it's like, we know the power of personal brand. We know.

What advice could you give when you are when you have that temptation to be like, if I just post a bit more, if I do a bit more commenting, if I spend another if I do another channel - like, there's no ceiling to any of that.

MLR: Well, I'll go back to my mate, Daniel Priestley, who's you you know, he says, ABS, anything but sales. And I think it's really interesting because I think social media can be a procrastination. And we're avoiding to do, which is actually having conversations with potential customers, generating leads, converting leads, and growing our business.

I think social media should be part of your strategy, but it shouldn't be the only strategy, if that makes sense. And so I know that sometimes you can think like, oh, I just need if if only I was posting daily, like, I've posted daily for over six months on LinkedIn. And I didn't. I get a bit more audience, but I I didn't necessarily gain more traction. And, you know, someone posted I I wrote this sort of reflection of one year of posting regularly on LinkedIn, what what lessons I learned. And the comment thread are amazing. If you can go back and find that post, the comments are just filled with, like, tips and insights from, like, these really, helpful, LinkedIn members.

And one of the things I learned is that actually it's it's it's also about being strategic. So, when we talk about business, one of the things I think is not being spoken to about and, I've gotta give credit. I think it was Alex Hormozi who kind of spoke about this, and then, Eleonore who also mentioned this. But there are three things that I think are really under spoken about and aren't celebrated enough, especially as us creatives.

One of them is, impulse control. So there always gonna be shiny objects, this new platform, this new technique. Have you tried this carousel? Have you tried this in lives? Newsletters, webinars, you know, there's always new things, new channels. And so you think that that is the magic one. That is the magic pill that's missing. Right? So impulse control is about saying, no. I'm gonna commit for the next twelve months, which is what I've done. I wanna get out of LinkedIn because I'm like, I should be on YouTube, which I'm gonna be transitioning to YouTube at some point soon. But I've I've committed. So right now my side is impulse control.

Second one is operational discipline. Operational discipline is the ability to go: I am executing on the thing I'm gonna do, and just having that ability to do. And the third one is ruthless prioritisation. As someone again with my little spicy brain, it's really hard. All those three things are pivotal to business, And they're really hard, especially if you're a creative one-person band. And so there are a few things you can do.

You can leverage AI to help you be basically your your sort of, chief operating officer, or you can find someone, a team member that you can sort of bring on whether part time or full time to help you really give those those strong foundations.

That's a really important point I wanna say because we can talk about social media tactics and stuff that works, all this stuff. But if if if you need to understand the fundamentals that social media is part of your strategy, it's not the only one.

I am connecting with people virtually. I'll have, like, you know, I don't do a lot at the moment because I'm on the road a lot and I'm traveling a lot for work, but I'll try and have a random catch up on a Zoom, and I don't know where it's gonna lead. Right? I mean, case in point, we're having this conversation today. We actually met up and we connected on Zoom after, like, being part of mic drop. I also go and make sure I I reach out to my previous contact, my previous clients. I said, do you know anybody who might be looking for a speaker at an event coming up? Because they'll know so people, I think

SM: Are you quite regimented with that?

MLR: No. I'm not. Like, I so I have a I have a structured CRM pipeline, which is it really it's kind of like lead in, contact made, meeting scheduled, proposal sent, negotiation, one lost. That's my that's my pipeline. Right? And so I move contacts throughout this pipeline.

And I checked my CRM system not as much as I should do, but that's kind of what reminds us. So when I get you know? And also little tactics, you know, Alex Bell will be much better at this, but he you know, things like delete your I don't know if was it you? No. Who is it? Did you delete your LinkedIn on Fridays? Someone else. Yeah. Anyway, someone else in the group, community deletes the the LinkedIn app on Friday night and reinstalls it on the Monday. Forgot what it was. That's funny. So things like that. Things like, you know Take back the control. I mean, you know, we we again, I don't wanna talk too much about parenting and stuff, but we're seeing now there's a battle.

There's a battle happening with our kids around screens. And so schools now you know, some schools have introduced iPads and stuff in schools, but other schools like in Denmark and in Spain are banning them because of the impact it has on the brain. And we had a very conscious commitment very early on that we just wouldn't, expose our kids to their screens.

We you know, they can watch cartoons once in a while or watch a film in a while, but it's not part of their conscious sort of belief that this is something they could do. So they are some of the most creative kids you'll see when they're, like, you know, they'll play and they'll create games and all this stuff. And my wife who's got a neuroscience background at Oxford, did a master's there. She's got a psychology background from University of Paris and did a childhood sort of psychology. Anyway, so that's her stuff. And she's always been the one that's been much more firm than me. Just like, no. This this will impact their brains. And the reason why I'm saying this is that, you can see there is no way you can win a battle against an iPad.

If you have the choice between creative free play, being bored, or getting on an iPad, you will always try now I'm saying this to someone who also gets why. Like, you know, especially during COVID. You know, I've got meetings and calls while you're gonna watch a few more cartoons than you would normally do. You know, you're at a restaurant, you have a meal with your partner, yet you're gonna get the phone or I feel like I get why. There's no there's it's not at all coming from a place of judgment. It's just coming from a place of:

We need to recognise that we're coming up against a battle.

And the reason why I'm saying this, it's like if you're an alcoholic and you're keeping alcohol at home. The battle is 10 times harder. If you don't have certain coping mechanisms in place to make sure you're not overusing social media, such as deleting apps on your phone that you could just be doing on your on your computer once or twice a day, right? It's gonna be really hard because you're fighting against an army of people whose sole purpose is to grab your attention and to keep you on it as long as they can. They're literally such powerful companies. And you're not gonna win. You're just not gonna win. As much like I've got willpower happen. Ain't happening.

SM: Linked to that, my quick penultimate question just to sweep in there is actually a question from one of our listeners who is also a parent. So while we are on that topic, let's let's just spend a bit more time on that.

They were asking about the truth not being as attractive with social media and some of the leadership these days. How can we avoid falling into those traps, whether it is social media or buying into certain leaders who are spinning certain stories. The truth today in 2025 is a loose concept.

MLR: Yeah. I get it. 100%. I think I think we're in the age of - you know I had this thought the other day - I was like, one day, kids will ask: did you used to have real actors? Like, did you actually have humans used to act? That was a thing, you know? Now we have, like, this sort of AI agent, but, like, actors - AI actors on film.

SM: Watched that Black Mirror episode last night.

MLR: Oh, really? I haven't seen it, but I didn't know that was it. Yeah. But, you know, it's like there's a part of me that's both fascinating and terrified.

I'm thinking about - I forgot his name. The guy who did the free solo documentary, if you haven't seen it. He climbed El Capitan, in Yosemite. (Alex Honnold)

I've seen it in real life, so I can tell you it is insanely high. And you can't do that any rope or any safety equipment. If you haven't seen the documentary, see it. It's one of the most amazing human feats.

So I see that, and I'm like, that's amazing. But what happens if we put a prompt, make someone climb up this facade without any rope, and we see it? Will it impact or or or then appreciation of the human ability to do it? So there's this lining blurred between and it's great.

Disney said if you can dream it, you can you can build it. I don't think he ever imagined that that is so true now. Like, I can think about something. I had a friend, right, she wanted to create a jewelry line or something. I'm like, describe me what the jewelry you wanna do. I put the prompt in. I show her the jewelry. She's like, oh my god. That's insane. I'm like, yeah.

We're coming into a world where talent in a way that we used to think is changing, truth in the way that we're changing. I think - and this is completely apolitical in terms of an observation - but the way that Donald Trump has managed to run his campaign, the way that Brexit managed to run their campaign, it became a thing where people said, but it's not true, but that doesn't matter. This wasn't a battle for truth. It just wasn't.

It was about who's got the best story.

I mean aren't necessarily the most ethical.

I'll go back because we're in the parenting conversation. One of the common conversation we have around our table is, "but so and so get to do this". And the line I always say to my kids is "that's great for them, but we have different ways of doing, and everybody gets to do their own thing." We focus on how our family operates. You're always gonna navigate in a world where people do things differently. It's not about judging. It's just about respecting what they're doing, but we focus on us.

And for me, for leaders listening to this entrepreneur's business, like, you might be tempted to fall into the trap of "well, if it's winning, why wouldn't I do it?"

Be on the right side of history.

What I would say is do what feels right to you. Be in your integrity. So, you know, if you're if you wanna be honest about something, be honest about something. If you don't wanna lie or build false narratives, then don't do that. You don't have to because winning at all costs for me comes at a cost. And that cost is our integrity.. And I wanna sleep well at night.

SM: Love that, Mark. My final traditional closing question, what's one particular tragedy that's taught you an unforgettable lesson?

MLR: Two comes to mind.

The short one is, when I was younger, someone we knew was a friend. So but someone we knew from our from our sort of group of age group, took his own life when we were about 15. It was a really new concept back then. It was not like today mental health is being spoken to. And shortly around that, one of my brother's best friends took his life in a pretty brutal way. My dad, I remember, set us down, and we were all outside. I think that like, my my brother and his mates were, outside mourning, lighting candles, and my dad was there. And I remember he said something that stayed with me forever. He said:

"You will never understand why someone gives up, because it's it is the most natural thing to do as human beings. If you throw a baby in the water, they will try and survive. They will naturally try and survive. They they will try. Like the most natural, you will try and fight. So to end your life means that you've you override a human basic instinct that is no longer in the world of being rational, and it's one of the biggest tragedies.

The second thing he said:

"Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem."

And that line has stayed with me.

And I think that shaped me. Trying to understand when I'm around people who are struggling with their mental health and, yeah, that comes up.

SM: Linking with the entrepreneurial highs and lows - I think you we also touched on, like, those fundamentals. And having been there myself personally where you just haven't had enough sleep, you haven't had good food, and you can't see the wood for the trees sometimes, and then you're kinda like you get some bad news, and someone lets you down, and it's kinda like, oh my god, one thing after another. It does when you're in the moment - it does feel like a permanent solution to a temporary problem. I think that we - at least just only speaking for myself here - it's like, I think I can sometimes forget the perspective, because you're in the moment, and you're kind of, like, head down. You're down in the dumps. You're like, oh, this is so shit. And I guess that speaks to also the great stuff you were saying about the community as well and having someone else to, like, just lift your head back and just be like, you know, it's not that deep or just go and touch some grass or, you know, this this too shall pass.

MLR: Yeah. I mean, loo, one of the big trends at the moment are community. I don't live in London any more. One of the things I've noticed walking around London yesterday are run clubs. It's insane. Like, I was on Oxford Street area and you know, Gymshark... and I thought, yeah, that makes sense. In a world where we feel most disconnected where AI and technology can take over, like, community building, going back to what the thing we've lost through religion that you used to want to serve this purpose. And I just wanna speak quickly to what you just said. I learned this from Tim Ferris. Have you ever heard of the acronym HALT? So if you're feeling like that, HALT is, am I Hungry? Am I Angry? Am I Lonely? Am I Tired?

Am I hungry? Eat something.

Am I angry? Go and exercise.

Am I lonely? Go and meet a friend.

Am I tired? Have a nap.

I mean, it sounds so stupid and simple, but it's worked so many times.

SM: Yeah. And then the second tragedy?

MLR: The second one is, well, it's a weird one, but I think it's it's very much linked to what I do. Right? So it's sort of, it's it's 02/2009, and I go through a really bad breakup. Affected. I found out that my, girlfriend's cheating on me. And look. I'm no saint. I've cheated on girlfriends. I don't wanna come across as someone who's, like, a higher being, and I'm not. I found out - it's like this horrible moment. I break up with her. She's a colleague, and makes things very difficult. So I quit the job. I leave. I go back and leave my parents' house. My grandfather gets diagnosed with terminal cancer. Just a lot of stuff. And he died they died. A lot of thing happens. And I'm and I'm living and I'm staying at my parents' house, which I'm very grateful for, but I was very difficult because I was like, this on a trajectory, and my career was doing well, all this stuff. And I was struggling to get up in the morning. I was struggling to connect with people. Like, I'm a social being. I'm outside. I'm outspoken. I'm extra about all this stuff. I just was kind of recluse a lot. And I think one morning, it was probably 02:00 in the afternoon. I was still in bed or something.

And my mom walked in, and I told her that I was thought I was depressed. And she was like, "oh my god, don't tell anybody. You're never gonna go to a job or whatever." And it really it really, like, scared me. You know, this moment of, oh, I can't talk about the fact that I have depression because I might not be loved. I might not be accepted. I might not get a job.

She was doing her best to protect me, and we've spoken about this since. And I really appreciate for what she was trying to do.

Fast forward to being in Paris for the Movember Foundation when I'm launching Movember France. I talk about the Movember Foundation, the amazing work, the the research, the groundbreaking stuff they're doing, the awareness, the funds, all this stuff. And there's a journalist in the room. She effectively asks, why did you wanna run Movember France? Right? Like, you had a job and you quit. Like, why do you wanna run Movember France?

I remember being at this crossroad of deciding, like, do I just say the vanilla answer? Because it's a great foundation, and I think men should look silly with mustaches to do a good cause.

Or do I say... because I went through a really tough time. And when I was going through this tough time, I discovered Movember. It gave me a sense of meaning, a sense of belonging, a sense of purpose, a sense of community, a sense of set of values. It got me out of bed, got me creative, got me raising money, and I really loved it. And I just wish there were more people talking about this. (It wasn't like today. Mental health is way more spoken about than, say 15-20 years ago).

I thought that the world was gonna open up beneath me and get and I was gonna get swallowed or or at best get thrown pints at me or, like, tomatoes, and it was gonna be, like, again, you know, my my the end of my launch from Movember.

Instead of disconnection, what I got was connection. That was for me the biggest surprise because this guy, Matt, came up to me at the end. He was like, I just wanna say thanks for, you know, tonight, but especially thank you for sharing your story, because I've never seen another guy openly share your story like that. I've been also going through some stuff, and I just want to know that I'm gonna take part in Movember, and I'll get my colleagues to join in.

That was the penny drop moment for me, and I think that's the opening story of my book. And we went off to raise €2,800,000. We got a 10,000 people to sign up, and my team and I won an award pretty much every year. It taught me that the story that will change your life isn't the story that you hear. It's the story that you'll share.

If you wanna transform your business and change your life, learn how to share your story in a powerful way.

SM: Mark, love how we've come all the way full circle. This is a perfect way to wrap this episode. We're coming back to this power of storytelling and how it might be about you, but it's actually for other people.

Thank you so much for coming on. It's been such a pleasure. The time has flown. Great to hear your incredible stories. I'm sucked in, engrossed, enthralled as I'm sure all our listeners are as well. Lots of practical tips for entrepreneurs as well.

MLR: Thanks a lot for having me. I really appreciate it.

SM: And thank you so much for listening. Really hope that you've enjoyed this episode as well. Don't forget to hit that subscribe button. Honestly, it really helps me out.

Episodes are weekly, so make sure to tune in next time, and hopefully see you there.

Strategy & Tragedy: CEO Stories with Steph Melodia is the best podcast for curious entrepreneurs and ambitious founders. Learn from those a few steps ahead of you in these candid interviews of the highs and lows of scaling and failing business.

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